9x23 Winshester, making my own cases from .223

[Dawgfish]

I was gifted a pistol the other day. A Schutezen Pistol Works assembled 9x23 Winchester with a Caspian Arms frame. Ported barrel, five 19 round mags, and 45 rounds of ammo. The previous owner shot 5 rounds out of it. The barrel is also ramped. Nice gift! (can't post a picture of it, as I haven't met the post count criteria.)

Anyway, I was reading where it is possible to make 9x23 Win brass out of .223. I already make .300 AAC Blackout brass out of .223, so I am set up with a trim saw, and a case prep station. That part doesn't phase me at all, but before I go chopping up a lot of perfectly good .223 brass, is there anything else I need in addition to my little chop saw, another jig for cutting to this new length, my case prep center and my case trimmer?

Some folks had talked abou reaming the interior of the cases. What tool do you specifically use?

I had a commercial reloading business for a number of years, and I have literally loaded millions of standard pistol and rifle cartridges, about 4.25M, so I have the basics down fairly well. I play with a few odd calibers like .458 SOCOM, 6.8 SPC, and .300 Blackout, so I am accustomed to working up safe loads. We have a few Dillon 650's, one 1050, and a bench full of RCBS Jr's and RC's. I'm not a beginning reloader, but some things I just have not done.

Anything else I need to know before I take on a project like this?

My goal is to make an initial batch of 100 or so cases of different mfg's, get them to size, and work up a reasonable load, using Ramshot Silhouette (WAP), and duplicate factory loadings for 124gr projectiles in the 1450 FPS range. From there, I'll refine the process and build up to a batch of 1,000 cases or so, and settle on one mfg's brand of case to use.

Haven't been able to locate any Winchester 9x23Win cases, so I am resorting to making my own, and I don't want to just run the Starline super-comp because of the thinner case walls. I may try 100 of those and test fire a few, but reports are they don't hold the full power loads very well.

Thanks in advance.

[ltdmstr]

I would go to SAAMI web site and print out a copy of the 9x23 case dimensions, then cut a .223 case to length and width, measure and compare to spec. That way you can get some idea of how much material needs to be removed and from where.

[Arlin]

Dawgfish:

Why not trim the rim of 38 super cases?

Arlin

[The_Vigilante]

I used to see Winchester 9x23 new brass on Gunbroker frequently.

[superdude]

Egad. What a huge amount of work.

Since your gun has a ramped barrel and likely offers good case support, the Starline brass will be just fine. The Starline 9X23 comp only has problems in chambers that don't offer full case support. (http://38super.net/Pages/9X23.html)

An even better option would probably be Starline 38 Super Comp brass. It tends to be quite durable and as noted at the 38super.net link they hold up to high pressure well even in unsupported chambers. At least mine do. I run 1500 fps 124 grain loads (with Ramshot Silhouette) in the Super Comp brass in a Colt barrel (something I should not confess).

The .223 case is not the best option for several reasons. 1) Waaaay too much work involved. If your ramped barrel offers good case support you don't need the extra thickness in the web. Really. I made a couple rounds from .223 brass just for giggles and it offered no advantage and the amount of effort required was just silly. 2) Their external dimensions (i.e. rim) are smaller than the 9X23, and even smaller than rimless 38 Super and likely require even greater adjustment of the extractor to work well.

I suggest trying the Starline 38 Super Comp brass, or even their regular semi-rimmed 38 Super +P brass (they fit in my 9X23 chamber). Seriously, if your barrel offers full case support you don't need a ultra-thick web. We IPSC shooters runs those loads every day in our 38 Super guns with 38 Super brass. The thick web is ONLY required for running those pressures in an unsupported chamber.

[Dawgfish]

I would go to SAAMI web site and print out a copy of the 9x23 case dimensions, then cut a .223 case to length and width, measure and compare to spec. That way you can get some idea of how much material needs to be removed and from where.

Thanks for confirming my thought process on it. I was looking for specific equipment someone else may have used for the reaming. I didn't see the thickness on the sidewall on the SAMMI drawing though. That is the issue. Case length is 0.900". Got that part. http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/9%20X%2023%20Winchester.pdf

Dawgfish:

Why not trim the rim of 38 super cases?

Arlin

The 38 Super cases are not designed to run at the pressures that the 9x23 Win case run at. 38 Super is limited to about 30,000 CUP, while the 9x23 Win is rated up to 40,000+CUP. The unsupported portion of the case may develop an excessive bulge, or completely blow out if I were to use 38 Super loaded up that high. The same issue happens with Starline 9x23 comp cases.

[Dawgfish]

Thanks Superdude. I may be a bit overly cautious at times, as I'm trying to protect my streak of never having blown up a gun, yet. I'll give that a go, but will work up slowly.

I might also get an additional .38 Super barrel for it, as the mags are ".38 super/9mm" mags

[ltdmstr]

Pretty simple to measure case wall thickness and compare the two. If you want to ream inside the case, PTG and other can make up a custom reamer. The difficult part is going to be making sure you're cutting perfectly square to the case walls. Unless you're set on 9x23, I would just replace the barrel and save yourself a lot of work.

[superdude]

Thanks Superdude. I may be a bit overly cautious at times, as I'm trying to protect my streak of never having blown up a gun, yet. I'll give that a go, but will work up slowly.

I might also get an additional .38 Super barrel for it, as the mags are ".38 super/9mm" mags

I'm not sure that an additional barrel is required for using 38 Super brass. I run it in my 9X23 chambers with no issues.

Here is a quote from the article I linked with respect to firing 38 Super brass in a 9X23 chamber (since the 9X23 chamber is a little wider at the base than a 38 Super chamber):

"One last issue is that excessively expanded 38 Super brass might not resize well, or would end up with bulge/resize artifact that would weaken the case (see Figure 4B at http://38super.net/Pages/Brass.html). This was not a problem with my 38 Super cases that did not show excess bulging. They resized down to 0.383-0.384” (Dillon 38 Super size die), the same as they resize when fired in my 38 Super chambers. But not everyone that has fired 38 Super brass in a 9X23 chamber has had that same positive experience and report sizing artifacts. This is something you’ll need to watch for. It likely depends on chamber dimensions, pressures, brass selection and brass life."

[GrumpyOne]

I was told when I bought my 38s trubor, by Dave at STI, to run a box of Winchester Ranger 9x23 through it. It did not feel any stouter than the 38s load I'm using now. Save yourself the time and effort, do what superdude said.

[Service Desk]

Depending on the brand of cases you will have to ream the shortened .223 case to avoid excessive bulging when you seat a projectile. About .250 thou is deep enough for most 115, 121, 125 and 130 grainers.

I once made up a couple of hundred for an associate who had an interest in 9mm Steyr. The extractor groove proved to be the biggest issue in his gun, a Luger.

I would just use .38 Supercomp brass.... And avoid the headaches.

[9X23Guy]

I've ran Starline 9x23 Super Comp cases at 172-175 PF with no bulged what so ever so I'm not sure how hard you plan on running them if you're worried about thin case walls. Id save all of the effort and just buy some from Starline. The Win cases are alot thicker at the base but I'd have to use different load data so I don't use them. Plus Starline is a great supporter of the sport, I try to keep my business to those that do whenever possible. Good luck with your endeavor.

[Dawgfish]

Thanks for the insights folks. After I had some time to check out the barrel after taking the pistol apart, it appears that the case is very well supported, much better than the pics in the links provided. I'll order up a few hundred cases and a sizing/decapping die.

[GuildSF4]

The rim is slghtly larger on a 9x23 than a .223 also. (Should handle more pressure, the question is what is your time worth...)

[gm iprod]

9x23 is tapered like a 9x19. If you run 9x23 cases through a 38Super sizing die they do not hold a projectile as theyare thinner at th ecase mouth than 38Super. Starline 9x23Comp is what you need. I know 4 or 5 guys who load full major with that brass and it works fine.

Call Starline and see who they reccommend in your area to get it from. I thought Midway had some last month but they are now showing out of stock of both Winchester and Starline. I don't think making them from 223 will work very well at all.

[zaphar]

I'll order up a few hundred cases and a sizing/decapping die.

If you have 9x19mm dies you can use those for loading 9x23mm Super Comp. I've been loading it with 115gr JHP @ 172pf and the brass/primers look fine when I use it in a supported 4.5" 38 Super barrel.

[Justsomeguy]

Starline does indeed make 9mmComp brass that is dimensionally the same as 9X23. Their brass differs from original 9X23 Winchester brass only in that they relieve the internal taper slightly at the case mouth so that 147grn bullets can also be used without bulges. Call Starline and ask them about it. They were very helpful to me as I am in the process of building a 9X23 using original specs for 9X23 Winchester. I would NOT use 38 Super or Super Comp brass as it does not have a taper and other dimensions are NOT the same. If you are going for "major" the brass will last a lot longer if you use the correct stuff.

[Got Juice?]

If you were to cut down rifle cases wouldn't a .204 Ruger be a better choice than .223? (or the parent case .222)

[Justsomeguy]

I Forget what the parent case is for 9X23, but it's not the 223 or the .204 Ruger. Certainly at one time Col. Cooper did some experiments using the cut down 223 case, but the fellow who actually invented the round did not use that. Winchester and that fellow got involved in a lawsuit which Winchester lost over the 9X23, and soon after they quit selling it. It is certainly a natural for "9mnm major" as the case is spec'd to 50,000 psi, a limit you will not need to approach to get deep into major territory with various bullet types and weights. Since Starline is the only current manufacturer of a suitable case that I know of, they would still seem to me to be the people to contact about your acquisition and the possibility of developing new loads for it.

[superdude]

I Forget what the parent case is for 9X23, but it's not the 223 or the .204 Ruger. Certainly at one time Col. Cooper did some experiments using the cut down 223 case, but the fellow who actually invented the round did not use that. Winchester and that fellow got involved in a lawsuit which Winchester lost over the 9X23, and soon after they quit selling it. It is certainly a natural for "9mnm major" as the case is spec'd to 50,000 psi, a limit you will not need to approach to get deep into major territory with various bullet types and weights. Since Starline is the only current manufacturer of a suitable case that I know of, they would still seem to me to be the people to contact about your acquisition and the possibility of developing new loads for it.

I don't know if the 9X23 Winchester had a parent case per se, since in some ways it was considered a "new" case (John Ricco received two patents for it), but it is essentially a lengthened 9mm Luger (since both are tapered and have nearly identical dimensions at rim, head, mouth). The original Winchester brass has much thicker walls at the head/web to allow it to be used at high pressure in an unsupported chamber. SAAMI specs list the maximum pressure limit as 55,000 psi (as per a communication with Winchester). The Starline 9X23 Comp cases don't have thicker than normal case walls and don't hold up well at such high pressure in an unsupported chamber.

Cooper experimented with what he called the "Super Cooper".

Winchester still makes ammunition and brass.

A bit of history can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x23mm_Winchester

Dane Burns has a little information on the cartridge as well:

http://www.burnscustom.com/9x23.html

[Justsomeguy]

I have seen sectioned Starline (now called 9X23 Comp brass) and Winchester cases side by side, and though the Starline cases are not as thick at the web as the Winchester cases, they are certainly adequate and very much thicker than other pistol cases, and indeed resemble the interior of rifle cases.. Starline cases seem to measure about 0.0125 to 0.013 at the case mouth which is still pretty thick. Starline also moved the internal taper back a bit for clearance when you use 147grn bullets. If you use Winchester cases with 147grn bullets they might be "fat" in the chamber of some guns. I did not know, as Superdude pointed out, that Winchester cases were still available. If you are only going to use 124-130grn bullets then they are certainly very good cases.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Justsomeguy