Newer model 625 questions

[para45]

My brother just got a newer model 625 and it feels like crap. I ordered the to Jerry DVDs from Brian's site so we should be able to get it slicked up but what parts if any do you recommend. Along with that it has the firing pin in the frame so should we get an extra in case of breakage. Can you dry fire this model or should he be concered about breaking the firing pin. Thanks in advance....John DVC

[Bones]

You need a narrow serrated trigger, McGivern bead front sight, a call to the S&W Performance Center (800 331 0852) for a Combat Revolver package and 10000 rounds of ammunition.

I hope you live long enough to break that pin dry firing it. If it makes you feel better, load a moonclip up with dummies so that you can also practise your reloads.

[Ted Murphy]

Most folks like to put in the extra long firing pin from cylinder and slide. It makes the gun hit primers a bit harder.

Good action job helps too. I did a decent one on my 625 using the jerry video. Gun really benefits from reduced mainspring too.

Ted

[rwmagnus]

If you follow Jerrys advise on his video you'll wind up with a very nice competition 625. I left the spings stock but did put at extended firing pin in my 625. While it will shoot Winchester primers I use Federals.

As far as triggers go that's a very personal item. Try several if you can before changing it out. I prefer the stock trigger.

And yes the stock 625 being delivered these days is pretty bad. I almost declined my last one feeling that an angle grinder would be needed to whip this bad boy into shape .

Still the platform is awesome I just wish the S&W boys would spend an extra 5 minutes smoothing thigs up abit before sending them out the door.

[dajarrel]

I just did a trigger job on a 625 and was appalled at the poor casting of the rebound block. I worked on it for an hour and still didn't feel as if it was a slick as it should have been.

But even so, give me a S&W over any other revolver. New or Old. It can be worked on!!!!!

dj

[Carmoney]

OK, Bones--incoming......

1. Serrated trigger? Narrow serrated triggers are currently in vogue because everybody's figured out that Jerry likes them, and many shooters have an insatiable urge to imitate the big dogs. Jerry does that fingertip thing for his super-fast stunt shooting, and the serrated trigger helps with that. The problem is they work well for very few people other than Jerry.

2. McGivern gold bead? Again, same deal--everybody wants to be like Jerry. Nothing wrong with these, but try plain black and fiber optic before committing to the bead. Also, consider thinning the front blade down a little for a bit more visibility on the target.

3. S&W Performance Center? (sigh...) They can do a decent trigger job when they want to...unfortunately, they don't seem to want to very freakin' often. The stuff they had on the display table at Steel Challenge this summer had embarrassingly bad DA pulls across the board. My own PC 627 had a DA pull worse than the Swingline staple gun I carry in my shooting bag....until I fixed it, of course.

4. 10,000 rounds? I'm with you there! Although dry-firing a centerfire Smith is good for both the gun and the shooter. I also agree the FP is highly unlikely to ever break.

I also like the C&S extended firing pin, but have found a number of instances where the pin stuck through the front of the frame until I filed for awhile on the retainer cut on the barrel of the pin. Do not plan on this necessarily being a drop-in part, no matter what the website or Brownells catalog says.

On a competition-only gun, you can take the DA pull waaaaaaaay down if you're using Federal primers and you have good handloading QC (i.e. fully seating the primers). Even Jerry admits he's finally "outgrown" the full-house spring thing!

Mike

[spook]

Even Jerry admits he's finally "outgrown" the full-house spring thing!

Are you referring to Mainspring or rebound spring?

[rwmagnus]

Even Jerry admits he's finally "outgrown" the full-house spring thing!

Are you referring to Mainspring or rebound spring?

It's gotta be mainspring. Who would want a lighter rebound spring? I want the rebound to be twice as fast as I can pull the trigger, LOL Jerry has a spring package and sells it as a kit. http://www.bang-inc.com/products.htm

[spook]

Yeah, I have the springs in my gun. I know about Jerry's heavy rebound spring. I just thought he might have cut back on the power of those a bit. I'd preferably want a rebound spring that's about 1% faster than I can pull the trigger

[Randy Lee]

I had Jerry out here for a class after the Steel Challenge. He ran about 80rounds thru my 627 with a 3.5lb trigger pull. Even with a light rebound spring, he couldn't outrun the reset. he was running about 1.8's for 6 plates from the low ready.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

OK, Bones--incoming...... 

1.  Serrated trigger?  Narrow serrated triggers are currently in vogue because everybody's figured out that Jerry likes them, and many shooters have an insatiable urge to imitate the big dogs.  Jerry does that fingertip thing for his super-fast stunt shooting, and the serrated trigger helps with that.  The problem is they work well for very few people other than Jerry.

2.  McGivern gold bead?  Again, same deal--everybody wants to be like Jerry.  Nothing wrong with these, but try plain black and fiber optic before committing to the bead.  Also, consider thinning the front blade down a little for a bit more visibility on the target.

3.  S&W Performance Center?  (sigh...)  They can do a decent trigger job when they want to...unfortunately, they don't seem to want to very freakin' often.  The stuff they had on the display table at Steel Challenge this summer had embarrassingly bad DA pulls across the board.  My own PC 627 had a DA pull worse than the Swingline staple gun I carry in my shooting bag....until I fixed it, of course. 

4.  10,000 rounds?  I'm with you there!  Although dry-firing a centerfire Smith is good for both the gun and the shooter.  I also agree the FP is highly unlikely to ever break. 

I also like the C&S extended firing pin, but have found a number of instances where the pin stuck through the front of the frame until I filed for awhile on the retainer cut on the barrel of the pin.  Do not plan on this necessarily being a drop-in part, no matter what the website or Brownells catalog says. 

On a competition-only gun, you can take the DA pull waaaaaaaay down if you're using Federal primers and you have good handloading QC (i.e. fully seating the primers).  Even Jerry admits he's finally "outgrown" the full-house spring thing!

Mike

Now don't pick on my buddy "Bones"

Serrated trigger? That is what I prefer but I like the .400 wide serrated. I get better control from them.

Gold Bead? Well sorry Bones, I still prefer tritium post with either black rear or tritium rear.

S&W Performance Center? Well we live in the people's republic. Since we are driving distance from S&W and we get to shoot at their range, we also get to know who "The Man" is to work on the revolvers. I have a 610 done by the PC and it is a fine action that works with all primers. I also have a 625 that I have done myself that is Federal primers only. I used the same principles but went a little lighter.

As far as the extended firing pin? I have never really needed one but they sell them so people will buy them

I have seen the 19 Bones had done at the PC and it is a real fine gun. I too will recomend the PC for an action job but I will even tell you who to ask for if you want

Regards,

[Carmoney]

I gotta tell you guys.....I've been doing this wheelgun thing for awhile now, and had pretty much gotten to the point where I figured I can slick up a S&W action for competition as well as just about anybody out there, and better than most.....

Then I handled some samples of Randy Lee's work at the Steel Challenge.

oh....my....god.

Smooth as glass and unbelievably light.

Now I haven't shot any of these guns myself, but I saw several being used very effectively in the match. I also came home and did some experimenting with lightening and skeletonizing the hammers on guns with both the floating pin and the hammer nose, and I now have no trouble believing that Randy's competition actions, with 3.5 to 4 pounds DA pulls, actually work reliably. (Mine aren't that light, and until I invest in a Dillon 1050 and start priming on the downstroke I probably can't take full advantage of the concept, but at least I understand how it all works.) To boil it down: Fast slap beats heavy crunch when it comes to popping primers. Light hammer equals fast slap.

After this experience, I have to say I highly doubt there is anyone in the Performance Center in Springfield who has any clue about what can truly be accomplished with the DA pull on a Smith revolver.

Or so it seems to me.

Mike

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

I gotta tell you guys.....I've been doing this wheelgun thing for awhile now, and had pretty much gotten to the point where I figured I can slick up a S&W action for competition as well as just about anybody out there, and better than most.....

Then I handled some samples of Randy Lee's work at the Steel Challenge.

oh....my....god.

Smooth as glass and unbelievably light.

Mike

Well Mike I admit to being pretty new to wheel guns, started shooting them in 1970, went to the S&W Armorer's school in 1980, serviced revolvers for 9 departments over the years, and continue to learn about the fine points on a daily basis. I only work on my own now but even that is a challenge.

I would love a chance to see Randy's work. I always appreciate the workmanship of others. There a lots of trick for light actions. Some good, some not so good. But I must tell you, the 30 plus years of experience the Master Gunsmith/toolmaker at S&W has needs to count for something. He doesn't just tune them he also builds them.

Someday we will meet somewhere and we can compare.

That is the joy of this sport, there is always something else I can learn. That is the reason I read here.

Regards,

Gary

[Randy Lee]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the kind words.

I tend to agree with you as far as the Performance Center's ability to provide cutting edge trigger work. Like most manufacturers the issue of liability keeps them in the middle of the performance envelope. At some point in the near future I will make a trip to Springfield and peek in on PC's Jim Rae and Tom Gordon.

I guess trigger work is really a relative issue. The numerous spring kits available will by themselves reduce the trigger pull weight. Coupled with friction reduction in the appropriate places, a very good trigger job can be had for a modest investment.

When you get to the upper end of the competitive spectrum more time and effort become necessary to squeeze the last bit of performance out of the system. Carmoney and a handful of others who truly love the revolver are asking the right questions and coming up with their own solutions which yield not just a "good" trigger job, but rather an EXCEPTIONAL one. IMO they are on the cutting edge of understanding the inner workings of the Smith. This is perhaps something that S&W as a manufacturer cannot support because it takes a huge time investment and the financial return for the bean counters is not great enough for them to take a second look at.

Regards,

Randy

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

At some point in the near future I will make a trip to Springfield and peek in on PC's Jim Rae and Tom Gordon.

Regards,

Randy

If you ever get in the area Randy and have the time I would appreciate a chance to see your work. E mail is in my profile and I am only 2 hours away from Springfield.

Regards,

Gary

[DougCarden]

Ditto to what Carmoney said. I have 8 N frames in the safe that I have had to re-do the triggers on and God knows what else. These are guns that had work on them by brand name smiths and by factories, and I wont bore you with the trigger that was on my 627 38super PC gun or the 610 that needed 6 hours of work out of the box. FWIW Carmoney showed me how to work on my own guns.

Randy Lee had some awesome triggers on the 627s, and I saw Vic Pickett smoke a couple of stages with his 3.5lb trigger at the Steel Challenge. I tried it later at the table, had to blink, didnt believe it.

I am also eating crow now, having stated in the past that the frame mounted firing pin was a bad thing. I now have a 8shot super with a 5lb trigger that goes bang every time with federal primers that people line up to shoot, and you cant do that with the hammer mounted firing pin guns. The guns that Smith and Wesson are producing are the best designed guns that they have ever made, but I too miss the craftsmen that took the time to make sure each gun was "perfect" before it left the door instead of assembling them.

[IYAOYAS]

Randy Lee do you build complete revolver? I want to get started.

Thanks

Carl

[Carmoney]

Here is Randy Lee's website:

Apex Tactical

Based on what I saw on his table at the Steel Challenge, he does great 1911 and Glock trigger work, as well. I'm sure he does other stuff too, but I was really intent on checking out his triggers. The revolver stuff was just phenomenal--literally in a class beyond anything I've ever felt--and frankly fellas, I'm generally not all that easily impressed.

Other than here on the forum, I've only had just that one brief conversation with Randy in person, but he certainly seemed very polite, competent, and knowledgeable. Pretty rare combination in a gunsmith...

Mike

P.S. Gary--sounds like S&W needs to get your buddy in Springfield working on a few more of those revos they ship out, especially the ones with the PC emblem. I guarantee ya he ain't touched any of the half-dozen smiths that I've purchased this last year...

[Randy Lee]

IYAOYAS,

Unfortunately I don't sell complete guns. Here in California, I've been relegated to only working on customer supplied firearms. It's a whole lot less grief that I have to deal with from the state.

I'd be more than happy to discuss your requirements and specifications for a custom revolver.

Best,

Randy

[Gun Phan]

I have a S&W 627 that Randy has put one of his fine trigger job on it. I can say that it is one of the best trigger job I have ever felt.

I shoot PPC & ICORE and have tested several trigger jobs for S&W revolvers. Randy is one of the best gun smith for the job.

[rwmagnus]

... I shoot PPC & ICORE and have tested several trigger jobs for S&W revolvers. Randy is one of the best gun smith for the job.

I'm setting up a 627 V-Comp for ICORE right now. Do you shoot iron sights or electronic? Are you shooting a 158RN plated bullet? BTW I've heard good things about Randy's work from the folks at Hogue Pistol Range.

[Bubber]

Dern you Randy Lee!!!

I just pulled the trigger on Mark Tapp's revo. He don't need the advantage!! Nice trigger job!!!! Now how am I supposed to keep up with him next year. I did not like the newer in frame firing pins because I did not think you could get that good of a trigger job on one. I thought that you would lose a lot of inertia going through so many parts. Well I was wrong. This makes the second time to.

[Randy Lee]

Hey Bubber,

Mark and I need all the help we can get!

We both know that we need to compensate for our poor shooting skills with technology just to keep up with you!

[EricW]

I am understanding correctly that the cheap MIM guts of the new S&W's can be replaced with high-quality parts?

[Randy Lee]

Hello Eric,

Yes, the MIM hammer and trigger assemblies can be replaced. The rebound slide, and cylinder stop can also be replaces with older forged parts if you can find them(usually in gun shops around the country). Some fitting may be reqiured to ensure proper function in your gun.

Best,

Randy