Newer model 625 questions

[Carmoney]

Tell you what, boys, I think you can get a pretty nice action out of the MIM parts. Everybody acts like if you touch them with a stone they will just instantly turn into gray powder. I don't have that much experience with MIM revolver parts yet (all within the last year), but I haven't found that to be the case. I am now running three guns with MIM parts (646, 617, 686+) in competition, have done action jobs on all three, they're all just fine so far.

In fact, the 646 is one of the guns I've been using to test some of the intellectual property I stole from Randy. It now has one of the best actions I've ever managed to put on a wheelgun that headspaces on moonclips, functions 100%, and worked good enough for me to take 1st EX SSR at the Missouri State IDPA Championships back in September. And yes, I did cut into the MIM hammer from many different angles to employ some of my new "hammer velocity" knowledge--I was just gentle with the stone in the spots where it's important to be gentle....know what I mean?

MIM parts? Frame-mounted FPs? No problem, I say.

Mike

[Randy Lee]

When S&W came out w/ the MIM parts, at first I was a bit disappointed. Carmoney is right in that a very nice trigger pull can be had with the MIM parts. They even redesigned the trigger to reduce drag on the cylinder stop as it returns. This definitely helps when lightening trigger pulls below 5 lbs.

My main gripe about the factory parts, whether MIM or forged is that the surfaces are often irregular. I see this on rebound slides, hammers, triggers, cylinder stops.

Do these irregularities affect the quality of the trigger job? For most applications, no. I finally decided to stop my whining and design my own parts. I now have my own skeletonized hammer for the N frame with frame mounted firing pins. It is made from 17-4 heat treated stainless, surface ground sides, EDM cut. Needless to say, I'm excited. It is allowing me to break the sub 3.5 lb pull barrier. More parts are on the design table.

[spook]

Randy Lee, very cool! Do you sell those parts? Or do you only use them when YOU do the work on a gun?

[Randy Lee]

Hello Spook,

I do sell the new hammers. The first batch was back from heat treat a few weeks ago...then vanished immediately .

The next batch is in process. I can let you know whenthey are available.

Best,

Randy

[spook]

Thanks Randy! Please let me know. I am really curious.

[rwmagnus]

Hello Spook,

I do sell the new hammers. The first batch was back from heat treat a few weeks ago...then vanished immediately .

The next batch is in process. I can let you know whenthey are available.

Best,

Randy

Okay what am I missing hear? Forged vs MIM in a hammer... how can you feel the difference when shooting? I'm uessing if you swap out the hammer you should swap out the trigger as well?!

[Randy Lee]

Okay, here goes my schpeel...

For most shooters the MIM parts will work wonderfully. Down to five pounds, most people would not feel any difference between the forged hammer/trigger and the MIM counterparts.

When you reduce trigger pulls below that threshold, surface finish and uniformity become more important. Go down to the 4.5 lb range- the way a part holds its finish greatly affects the quality of the pull. The spring forces involved in a +6 lb. trigger pull will conceal nearly all surface irregularity interactions within the system. How many times have you replaced the factory springs, polished surfaces and reassembled the gun only to find that the heavy factory pull masked the fact that the cylinder yoke was not aligned with the frame boss-which caused the trigger pull to be inconsistent on one or more chambers?

The MIM parts have several benefits- cost of manufacture, acceptably close tolerances and minimal fitting for the assembler. The shortcoming for me is seen on several fronts. First, the injection molded part doesn't have the denser grain structure that a forged or even barstock part would have. On my ICORE revo, I have already worn down one cylinder stop to where it had to be replaced. The flattening can be seen even after 5-600 rounds. Now check out a Smith revolver that used the older forged cylinder stop(assuming that the gun has had equivalent handling). The top of the cylinder stop will show a bright spot, but the wear pattern should be noticeably smaller.

I'm pretty sure that most pistolsmiths and do-it- yourselfers will polish the contact surface on the underside of the rebound slide. After reassembly and perhaps some shooting, take a look at the contact surface again- the wear site will usually appear as a dulling in the polished area with a lengthwise scratch pattern. Try using an older forged part with the same polishing care. The wear pattern will usually take longer to appear, and many times using the forged rebound slide will affect the feel of the trigger pull, especially on the return. The difference in drag will often allow the use of a lighter return spring.

The second point is surface deviation from flat. In this case, the hammer sides where the sideplate and hammer pin boss contact around the hammer pivot. A hammer thats sides are stoned perfectly flat relative to the contact surfaces will float uniformly on a thin layer of lubricant and reduce drag during the hammer's travel. On both the forged and MIM hammers rarely have I found sides that polished flat. The non-MIM hammers that did yielded exceptional trigger pulls below 4 lbs.

The same is true of the trigger sides. The contact surfaces on the old style serrated triggers which are .265 wide have been typically flatter than others in my experience. If you find one that has both sides flat, parallel and hard chromed, glassy smooth 3.5-4.0 lb pulls are within your grasp with less effort.

My prototype steel 627 revo is running WELL below 3.5 lbs using my hammer and forged hard chromed factory trigger. Try as I might, I could not do this with the MIM counterparts. I designed the hammer because I was tired of spending so much time trying to make factory hammers perform the way I wanted them to. The same philosophy holds true for cylinder stops, triggers and rebound slide assemblies I am redesigning which will operate in the sub 3.5 lb range. The Smith design is very good... I just want to see how much better I can make it work for me.

Again I must reiterate that most will have no need for my replacement parts or for that matter my trigger work. There are many pistolsmiths around the country that can provide the consumer with VERY good trigger work at a modest price. Many of you reading this post can probably perform the same work with the excellent results.

My parts and work are directed towards those looking to push the edge of the envelope of competition and those who for whatever reason don't have the hand strength to activate even a 6 lb trigger yet have the desire to participate in the revolver friendly shooting sports.

[underlug]

Bump this thread so Glen can find it

[boomzilla]

thanks underlug...found thread & registered...look forward to meeting you here again sometime...

[hopalong]

Boomzilla,

WELCOME to the forum...

Hopalong

[boomzilla]

thanks hopalong...in my quest for smoother & lighter s&w actions, i will be happy to participate in this forum...am really curious about these 3.5# da trigger pulls...seems to me that around 7# is needed to consistantly ignite federal primers

[hopalong]

Boomzilla,

The reason Vic and Randy are getting such low trigger pulls is twofold....

1 they are smoothing all moving surfaces eminsley(spelling)adding a good lube thus takeing away as much drag as possible.

2 they reduces the mass on his hammers so he has a fast but light hammer thus taking the required spring weight to overcome the mass and inertia on the hammer.

I have one of Vic Picketts trigger kits in my 625 (-4 model with firing pin on the hammer) and with the smoothing and other work I put into mine I have a reliable 5 1/2 pound double action trigger pull.

In my 610 I have a Wolff kit... I did the same work as the 625 but have it set at 7 1/2 and it pops Winchester primers 100 percent if I seat them all the way down.

a small note here, For me out to about 30 yards I have no problem with the heavier trigger pull of the 610 as if you are pressing the trigger correctly the weight of the trigger is a non issue.( and this gun will pop federals 100% at 6lbs)

Hope that helps explain things it is a basic overview as I have not seen exactly what they do but that is what I understand of it.

Hopalong.

[Randy Lee]

Greetings,

I just wanted to clarify that Vic is officially using my trigger work.

Vic is a great guy and an exceptional shooter. I'm thrilled that he will be sporting the Apex logo in 2005!

[twix]

Looking at the Apextactical web site price lists, I really liked this:

1911 competition trigger of 2.5# or less*** requires proof of USPSA "C" card or better

[rwmagnus]

Greetings,

I just wanted to clarify that Vic is officially using my trigger work.

Vic is a great guy and an exceptional shooter. I'm thrilled that he will be sporting the Apex logo in 2005!

I agree and I just met him. We've talked a couple time by phone and thru emails but I met him at the SHOT Show.

Now he had on display the 627 you worked on for him. All I can say is WOW. Super light trigger and glassy smooth. I think he said it was 3.5 lbs. BTW I noticed your biz card displayed below the gun .

There is difenately a difference. That is the nicest trigger I've ever pulled on a S&W. Not everyone needs to get to this level but seeing (feeling) is believing! Randy your reputation is well deserved.

[Carmoney]

Yep--they're just incredible. (Randy had some kick-ass 1911 and Glock triggers on display out at the Steel Challenge, too.)

Sure wish I owned a Dillon 1050 so I could lighten up my S&W actions even more.

Can you believe I'm still loading all my ammo on the same Dillon Square Deal I bought for $174 back in 1987? I'll bet it's one of the higher-mileage SDBs out there....wish I'd kept track of how many rounds it's made for me.

Mike

[Flexmoney]

Mike, that SDB won't get the Federal "below flush"?

[Carmoney]

Sure it will, Flex, if the guy running the machine does everything just right.

I just know no matter how careful I am, I seem to get at least the occasional round with a primer that isn't seated 100% perfectly, especially with large pistol primers (smalls seem to seat a little easier, I find). So my revo actions have to be heavy enough to accommodate a little bit of "cushion" now and then (I'm running mine around 6 to 7 pounds to be 100% reliable with my ammo.)

It would sure be nice to be priming on the downstroke, with an exact adjustment and mechanical stop that ensures that all primers will be seated to exactly the same depth on every round. Then I could try to get the actions down in that 4 pound (or even a bit below) range.

But my credit cards are warm enough in my back pocket already, the 1050 will have to wait awhile.

Mike

[JayC]

Hello everyone. First off I'd like to say that I'm not a revolver shooter like you guys, but do own a couple. Mike knows his revolvers well. He also shoots them very, very well. I have had a chance to shoot 2 revolvers he has done, excellent.

I agree with the things said about the Performance Center. I have shot a few of these guns and didn't care for the triggers. It also says a lot when I own a PC 627 .38 Super that the Performace Center sent to TK Custom to have the trigger done. I bought this gun new. When I got the gun it came with a certification letter, extra parts, and a smith list from TK. Now why they did that, I have no clue. When I compare my PC to ther PC's though, there is no comparison in the triggers.

I have also seen other little quirks in quality on PC guns that you wouldn't see on other custom revolvers, but this isn't the issue here.

If I ever take the plunge to the dark side, lol, I will be asking Mike for his thoughts or recommendations for getting revolver work done.

OK, I've put my 2 cents in. Now I think I'll go back to another playing field where I'm a little comfortable, lol.

Catch ya guys later.

Jay

[Carmoney]

JayC, the very fact that you're leaving a post here indicates that you're curious about the black alchemy we call "revo".....

Do you have ANY idea what goes on at our secret meetings???

[JayC]

Maybe a little curious Mike, but more scared, lol. Bad things (OK, funny things) happen when you take a bottom feeder shooter and put something in his hand that turns a cylinder when it goes bang.

Did I ever tell you about the time I was shooting 2 guns in a match and I attempted to put a mag in the cylinder during a reload, lol. Hey at least I didn't have to think about my reload, too bad it was a revolver though. I use to have that on tape, but some how the tape came up missing. I don't know, but I think it was a government cover up.

I don't want to know about the secret meetings. Between you, Jay, and Skip I'm scared to step into the shooting bay unless I have some other like minded shooters. I may get pulled into that black hole and not come back out until I'm a fully tuned revolver shooter. Not saying that's a bad thing, but just a little scary. On the other hand I may see the light and everything will be a little more green on the other side.

OK, time to go. Take care and I'll catch ya guys later.

[Randy Lee]

Greetings to all!

rwmagnus, sorry I missed you at the show and thanks for the kind words. Were you at one of the booths or roaming?

Hey Mike, I'm pretty sure Vic is loading on a SDB. He might be able to tell you his primer seating method.

I brought Vic's 627 over to Jerry at the PC Booth. He now has one of my hammers- hopefully he'll like it. If anyone can push a part to the edge of the envelope, it's him.

JayC, welcome to the dark side

[BadShot]

JayC with a revolver? I like it. Does HK make a round gun? I'll give you 8 dollars for your tactical...

Skip

[JayC]

It's in the works Skip, lol. You make it $7.00 and it will be a 2 for 1 deal . I'll still have 1 HK anyway. Ya know, I just can't decide what to shoot this year. I have constantly been flopping. Maybe a year of revolver shooting is needed. I'll just put a mask on and change my name, that way when I'm at the bottom I won't feel so bad . Or maybe I can pay Jay to change his last name. Actually it almost might be kind of fun to do that this year. Maybe, just maybe, I'll check into the rules. Are 8 shots allowed?

Catch ya guys later.