Shooting "corkscrews", loading that settles at distance.

[dogtired]

I am getting my coyote gun set up for a 3-gun match out near a friends. I have shot USPSA but not 3-Gun as nothing is available locally. Rock River lightweight upper with freefloat tube, 1:9, 16", Levang comp, home brew lower, Millett DMS 1x4 scope (traded for it, bring what you got). I zeroed the rifle with some factory cannon fodder, American Eagle 55 grain. The first pic is minute of clay pigeon at 50, 12 inch gong at 200 easily.

Of course you need to test it at 300 and 400yds which I did this morning. After some minor adjustments I was able to put 3 in a 10" circle and 300 and 400. The 300 is dot covering dot, 400 required holding on a portion of the lower donut.

Not bad for a one eyed fat man.

Of course I needed to drop back to short range yardage and test the gun at 100yds. I find my poi is was off in the short course (run at 4x).

I still was able to ding the 200 yard gong 9 out of 10 times. All shots at minor speed of course.

So my question is should I be more accurate in the short course or the long shots. Before I get all of the answers of "find a load that works better, change your scope, etc" I am going in a few weeks and may not have time or ability to find a load that works better.

If I had to run this gun tomorrow, what strategy would you take. My feeling is the long shots are harder to replicate and I can hold low right on the short course with better success. I need to get out and try the short course on 1x to see if that will change the function, or find a repeatable hold that works better.

All suggestions appreciated, even those that I asked you not to give. ;-)

[Graham Smith]

Generally speaking, the two go hand in hand. I shoot precision long range and if you can't shoot 1 MOA at 100yds (1") then you can forget hitting much of anything smaller than a barn at 1000yds.

Keeping in mind that the further out you go, the broader a groups is going to be. For example, my 1" group at 100yds will be 5" at 500yds. If I have the dimensions of your target correct, it looks like you have about a 2" group (ignoring the flyers) at 50yd so let's say that you are shooting about 4 MOA. At 200yd that's going to be 8", at 400yds it's 16".

I would suggest that you take the time now to find a good load that will give you a minute of shooter at 50yds (to the best of your ability) shooting from a sandbag, taking you time to carefully aim every single shot and calling your shots to help eliminate flyers. If you reload, you should be ladder testing to find the best load, if not, then try different manufacturers bearing in mind that you have to pay for this stuff in greater quantity later.

The big problem down the road are the flyers. One of the reasons for wanting a tight group at 50-100yds is that at greater distances, any flyers you shoot may not be where you want on the target, but they may at least hit it. Bear in mind that if your aim is off by 1/2 MOA, then that adequate group at 50yd may be putting 1/4 or more of the shots off the target.

As to stability, any load you shoot should be fairly stable at 50yds and really stable at 100yd. If not, then there is either something wrong with the ammo or the gun.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Graham Smith

[Chuck Anderson]

Did you re zero to put it on at 300? Normally on at 50 is pretty close to on at 200. Then hold overs at three and four. If you're getting on at 50, on at 300 and 5" high at 100 something weird is going on.

[wgj3]

Not always true. Depends on mount or more accurately how far above the center line of the bore the optic sits. I believe that if his optic is a little higher than normal then the observed phenomenon makes perfect sense. Also, if your POI at 50 is above POA then you be overly high at 100 and closer again at 300 instead of 200. There are just SO many variables...

[Chuck Anderson]

I can't imagine the scope mount that would do that. He looks zeroed at 50. Mine will run an inch and a half high at 100 and 10.5 low at 300. I can probably do the math to figure out how high the scope would have to be, but if its the scope mount he needs a new one.

[dogtired]

I guess my description is lacking clarity. I took the rifle and zeroed at 50/200yds. The 50yd group pictured above was rapid (well brisk) fire with front rest only. The gun shoots 1" or less off the bench with handloads, the mount is solid. I then went to the 300/400yds and did adjust the scope to hit my 10" targets. One click left, two clicks up. Then back to 100 to see what the adjustments did and the final pic shows poa/poi.

I will post a pic of my first group at 300 to show the guns potential, prior to adjustment. First three of the day, 50/200 zero, slow fire for grouping.

I found an old group of my coyote load with a different lower.

Edited September 6, 2013 by dogtired

[Chuck Anderson]

You might verify but it looks like your scope may be canted in the mount as well. Assuming everything is right you should be dealing with drop at 300 not left to right shift unless you're shooting on a windy day.

[dogtired]

The canting may be an issue in readjustment of poi but the DMS is a dot/donut reticle so the circles should not be affected by cant. Initial group was low right, minor correction to up and left moves to center of 10" circle. Move back to 100 and group is high and left similar to reticle adjustment. The 100 zero should be higher than the 50 zero a little anyway. I will go tomorrow and shoot it at 1x at 50 and see how far I am off.

[dogtired]

In thinking about cant again, if I used the post to help align the dots, the cant may effect left shift. I will check it. Thanks.

[APL-G35]

The donut dot reticle should still track adjustments like a regular crosshairs reticle. If the scope is canted it would do what chuck is talking about.

[dogtired]

If the scope is canted the adjustments would be not right to left but perhaps Low right to High left. The problem I see (I just checked for cant misalignment anyway) is that when I went one click left and two clicks up, it put the group right where it was supposed to. The 100 yard group reflected that adjustment by being up and left also.

I may try a different scope tomorrow and see if the bullets are displaying repeatability, if not, junk the DMS I guess.

[dogtired]

For those who have any interest anymore, I shot it today at 50 and 100. It seems that I will have to load my own to get this to be reliable for a match as the factory cannon fodder continues to shoot high and left even on 1x (perhaps slightly less).

Here is a 100 yard group shot at 1x to see if that would shrink the error. No such luck really, I did readjust the verticle down one click as I can adapt to holdover, but not horizontal.

I moved on to a 50 group with the 1x too and in this pic the 3 left shots are the factory stuff, and the 3 right shots are the coyote loads I had worked up for this gun. Some improvement.

Then I tried a few shots of another coyote load that I had tried in the past but the bullets turned out to be very hard on pelts. I think that I will have to load for this match after all. I will load a few of these and get back to 300/400 and see if it corrects my problem.

[Chuck Anderson]

Sight it in POA/POI at 50 yards. Shoot a group on 4x, then do the same at 100 and 200. Don't mess with adjustments between. Just shoot center of reticle, center of target and post the pics. It's hard to tell what's going on. But it doesn't look normal. And indicate where you aimed on the target.

[kurtm]

I don't know Chuck, it looks about right to me. A 50 yard/300 yard zero ( which depending on the gun is really around 39 yards) will put the bullet HIGH at 100 yards by about 3", about 4" at 200 and close to right on at 300. I did notice that at 50 he seems a bit high so that would explaion the extra height seen at 100. The left and right drifts could be a mired of things to include cant of scope, cant of rifle a slight breeze, the reapeteability of the Millet scope on different powers etc. I really don't see anything wrong, except it doesn't like that FMJ stuff.

[dogtired]

I am not altering POA with any of the groups unless indicated, I never chase flyers.

So back to my original question. If I am not able to load some ammo for this match, would you use a 50/200 zero and cover those distances, and struggle at 300/400? Or have 300/400 dialed in and struggle with the close stuff? I am sure I will have to pump out some reloads after this testing anyway. Save the factory stuff for blasting.

Edited September 7, 2013 by dogtired

[Steve RA]

I think a lot will depend on what the greatest distance is in the match and how many shots are "way out" vs - say - 200yds or less.

Do you have any knowledge of the match location??

[dogtired]

No details as of course layout. I am loading up some rounds as it looks like my old coyote round will do. I will post the results.

[Dan Sierpina]

Go with accuracy first, unless you know that it's a pistol bay hoser match. Zero at 200 yards if possible, not 50 thinking it's good at 200. It may be good at 200, or very likely not.

[practical_man]

Dog tired

I think your question was about zero distance. I am increasingly a fan of the 100 yard zero, despite a couple of decades doing it the "army way" with the 300 meter zero.

100 yard zero seems to keep the holds within a pie plate at the distances I shoot. Makes it easier to remember how to hold.

For service rifle competition I still zero at 200 and count clicks as we move back. Different games require different approaches.

[dogtired]

We have a 200 yd rifle bay at the club, so I am shooting groups at 50/100 and contacting the 200 yard steel both 12 and 6 in plates with little difficulty. I even had a passerby shoot the gun at 200 and he hit both plates consistently.

Green tip shot very well for me today but no sense in loving that for 3 gun.

[dogtired]

Well I shot the match. I had rezeroed to shoot well at short range which I think was the right choice. I struggled a little on the long range stage but I was not the only one. I definately identified some areas for improvement. Thanks for the help!

[Alaskapopo]

I don't know Chuck, it looks about right to me. A 50 yard/300 yard zero ( which depending on the gun is really around 39 yards) will put the bullet HIGH at 100 yards by about 3", about 4" at 200 and close to right on at 300. I did notice that at 50 he seems a bit high so that would explaion the extra height seen at 100. The left and right drifts could be a mired of things to include cant of scope, cant of rifle a slight breeze, the reapeteability of the Millet scope on different powers etc. I really don't see anything wrong, except it doesn't like that FMJ stuff.

Probably a typo but its 50/200ish 25/300 ish A 25 yard zero will but you 4 to 6 inches high at 100 yards.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Alaskapopo

[Alaskapopo]

[gerritm]

I had similar issues with my rifle. Looked like a scatter gun at 200 yards with my MTAC scope. Seekins upper and lower with an 18" Loki barrel. Never could get a consistent group with my handloads. Changed my scope to the Vortex Razor 1x6 and got better results because I could see the center or the target with the crosshairs not just cover it with the dot. Changed my comp to a Seekins Precison and it all came together. Shoots thru the holes at 50 and finally groups at 200 yards.

Edited September 24, 2013 by gerritm