I'm thinking about buying a Tanfoglio open gun....school me.

[huskerlrrp]

Looking for suggestions, opinions, and general experiences on the Tanfoglio Open guns. Should a CZ shooter pursue one or an STI 2011? Are they reliable? What mods should be done? Where to buy them, etc.

[Big Dog Howie]

I know the Tanfoglio run well and you can't beat STI you just have to really tune the STI mags,I have seen guys have plenty of issues with their STI mags.Tanfoglio mags run good,I have had no issues using Grams springs and followers and Henning base pads in my Stock II,I shot it limited minor for fun a couple of times.

My open gun is a CZ75 SA built by Jimmy Vindanes and I shoot Major with it and it shoots very good,I have never had any problems with my CZ mags.My suggestion is if you have any friends who shoot either Tanfo or STI see if they will let you put some rounds thru them.

This is it before Hard Chrome

http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww248/mramek/CZOpen_zps8ff08f56.jpg

Here is a pic of my Open Gun without red dot after hard Chrome

http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww248/mramek/HardChromeCZ_zps3324f36e.jpg

Edited September 5, 2013 by Big Dog Howie

[cpa5oh]

Why wouldn't a CZ shooter be looking at a CZ Czechmate?

[Big Dog Howie]

Why wouldn't a CZ shooter be looking at a CZ Czechmate?

At the time it was too hard to get so I had the CZ 75SA sitting around,and a lot less money.I also shoot Tanfo's .

Edited September 5, 2013 by Big Dog Howie

[Goldenmotors]

They are both simular and great guns.

[cpa5oh]

Why wouldn't a CZ shooter be looking at a CZ Czechmate?

At the time it was too hard to get so I had the CZ 75SA sitting around,and a lot less money.I also shoot Tanfo's .

I was more wondering why the thread starter, who said he was a CZ shooter, would skip over the Czechmate and be looking at Tanfoglios...

I wish they'd sell the Czechmate at a lower price and WITHOUT the 9mm "Limited" division upper, which is useless for the Limited division if you're serious about being highly competitive in that class (due to the major/minor scoring difference.)

[kneelingatlas]

Why wouldn't a CZ shooter be looking at a CZ Czechmate?

At the time it was too hard to get so I had the CZ 75SA sitting around,and a lot less money.I also shoot Tanfo's .

I was more wondering why the thread starter, who said he was a CZ shooter, would skip over the Czechmate and be looking at Tanfoglios...

I wish they'd sell the Czechmate at a lower price and WITHOUT the 9mm "Limited" division upper, which is useless for the Limited division if you're serious about being highly competitive in that class (due to the major/minor scoring difference.)

They don't include a second upper, just a blank comp with a front sight. The spare barrel is the only other "extra" you get.

You can say the Czechmate is over priced or that the TS is a great deal, either way, the trigger is very hard to beat (I know, I've tried). It's true that once you spend your $3K on the CM, then you spent another $180 on bases/springs/followers to get the mags up to capacity, $125 on the CZC mag well, $90 for the Cheely horizontal CMore mount, $50 on a new trigger if you don't like the plastic one and $100 on new grips if you have big hands like me, but then you have the best CZ can offer.

I converted my .40 TS into a 9mm Open gun so I truly have everything just the way I want it (except the comp, I'm still searching for the best one, although I'm pretty close).

[kneelingatlas]

I'm a CZ75 pattern guy, so 2011 just isn't an option; the grip/balance just doesn't feel right. I have a Gold Team, my converted TS, a small frame shorty project and a small frame long slide in the mail:

[Nealio]

I'm a CZ75 pattern guy, so 2011 just isn't an option; the grip/balance just doesn't feel right. I have a Gold Team, my converted TS, a small frame shorty project and a small frame long slide in the mail:

This post should be marked NSFW !!!!!

[Whoops!]

Let me give a little more insight . . . The Gold Teams are almost never timed well from the factory so you need to have a gunsmith time the barrel first off unless you want it to sheer the upper lugs in short order. In order to get a 38 super gold team to run 38 supercomp, you need to change the extractor to a 9mm extractor. All modern guns are reliable when properly tuned. I haven't found one I haven't been able to make reliable from a Remington 597 to a shoddily assembled open gun made from a Turkish platform.

The stock "v12" gold team does not have quite enough compensation from the muzzle break, but it has plenty of porting. The diagonel porting returns the dot extremely well to center, but the muzzle rise is slightly too much for the fastest split times possible from the platform. Grauffel has an extra horizontal hole drilled through his v12 comp to fix this.

The platform shoots better than a regular STI or Czechmate (unless porting is added) and is worth the investment. The only STI's that are realistically competitive with it at the highest level have additional barrel porting put in and the Tanfoglio still has a minute advantage.

The Gold Team's are a better deal initially, but will wear through parts more often and so the advantage price wise is negligible over the long term. That being said, they don't wear through the parts fast enough to not be reliable when needed. You just have to know what to look for in terms of wear.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Whoops!

[kneelingatlas]

This post should be marked NSFW !!!!!

There are also two Jerichos missing from that picture (a steel frame safety and a poly in the mail).

[gose]

The Gold Team's are a better deal initially, but will wear through parts more often and so the advantage price wise is negligible over the long term. That being said, they don't wear through the parts fast enough to not be reliable when needed. You just have to know what to look for in terms of wear.

Not a whole lot though. Arent the Tanfos ~2100 new vs 3k for teh CZ?

Add a couple of extra mags and Henning accessories for a couple of hundred to get the same capacity as you would with the CZ OOB, a scope, mount, trigger parts + trigger job (the trigger is pretty awful OOB).

Then add the fact that the CZ comes with an extra barrel as well and the difference in price is almost negligeble even in the short term.

Being a CZ shooter I initially went the Tanfo route and I have a very nice and well working Gold Team. However, after one season I realized I made a mistake and got myself a Czechmate instead. The Gold Team is ncie to shoot and is more accurate than the CZ, but being used to my Tac Sports I just shoot better with the Czechmate.

[ViperSnipe]

Let me give a little more insight . . . The Gold Teams are almost never timed well from the factory so you need to have a gunsmith time the barrel first off unless you want it to sheer the upper lugs in short order. In order to get a 38 super gold team to run 38 supercomp, you need to change the extractor to a 9mm extractor. All modern guns are reliable when properly tuned.

School me on what the term 'Timed' means. And what is/are the 'upper lugs'?

Thanks

V-S

[huskerlrrp]

Why wouldn't a CZ shooter be looking at a CZ Czechmate?

I've heard mixed comments (not reliable) from Open shooters regarding the CZ Czechmate. I also thought the 38 Super Comp would be a safer round at major vs. a 9mm major and this is unavailable in the Czechmate (as far as I know). The Tanfoglios have similar ergonomics as the CZ's so I thought I'd look into them. For me, mechanical reliability would be preferred over other performance attributes.

[Big Dog Howie]

Why wouldn't a CZ shooter be looking at a CZ Czechmate?

At the time it was too hard to get so I had the CZ 75SA sitting around,and a lot less money.I also shoot Tanfo's .

I was more wondering why the thread starter, who said he was a CZ shooter, would skip over the Czechmate and be looking at Tanfoglios...

I wish they'd sell the Czechmate at a lower price and WITHOUT the 9mm "Limited" division upper, which is useless for the Limited division if you're serious about being highly competitive in that class (due to the major/minor scoring difference.)

Oh sorry thought you referring to me. My bad

[george76904]

I bought my first witness a few years ago, and MAN is it a GREAT gun!!! It runs smooth. Recently i go tthe notion to convert it into an open gun. So i bought a new slide and barrel, I am in the In the process of converting it. I hope to have it ready in a few weeks. If you would like to see pctures I can email them to you just shoot me a PM over the board messaging and I can get them over too you. Either way i have used both TZ and Witness and for my money the witness just has a better design.

[Whoops!]

Barrel "timing" is just the fitment of the barrel within the slide. Ideally, when fired, the barrel will apply appropriate loads to each one of its lugs on both the top and bottom of the barrel and then to the slide stop and frame.

The lugs are the little ridged pieces of metal that extend above and below the barrel. There are 3 on top and one on bottom. Proper timing is one of the most difficult manufacturing aspects of these handguns (read all CZ's, Tanfoglios, and 1911/2011's). Thus, many manufacturers don't take the time or money to do it properly; this is especially true since most people don't put thousands of rounds through their guns like competitive shooters do. In the Gold Team's case, the wear from improper timing will be accelerated due to the additional weight of the cone comp on the end of the barrel. Most of these gun types are improperly timed against the slide stop so that the slide stop will break approximately every 5000 rounds.

Unfortunately, the Gold Team is most often improperly timed against the upper lugs so that the ridged pieces on top of the barrel will deform to a point where the gun is unusable without a new barrel after approximately 3 to 8,000 rounds. Any ok 1911 gunsmith can fix this so that the barrel lasts an appropriate amount of time. That being said, the problem has been so bad in some of the Gold Team's that you literally don't want to shoot it at all until you have the timing checked out. Otherwise, irrepairable damage may occur to the upper lugs, the slide, or both.

Last time I checked, a gunsmith is usually high one hundreds to fix the barrel timing? I'm thinking around like 185?

A lot of people don't like the stock Gold Team trigger. It doesn't really bother me. I practice pulling heavy double action triggers a lot and can lay down .2 second splits with the stock 3.5 pound Gold Team trigger without any bother. You can adjust it and polish it yourself to have minimal travel and weight. It's really not bad. I would say better than any stock service pistol I've ever tried, about the same weight as some Sigs in single action, but less travel and slop.

The guys I used to know who had Czechmates didn't have any more problems with reliability than any of the guys I knew who used Trubore's and Grandmasters and custom built 2011's. They almost all require a few things be done to them for utmost reliability. That being said, once they are done, they are usually done for a long time.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Whoops!

[ViperSnipe]

Barrel "timing" is just the fitment of the barrel within the slide. Ideally, when fired, the barrel will apply appropriate loads to each one of its lugs on both the top and bottom of the barrel and then to the slide stop and frame.

The lugs are the little ridged pieces of metal that extend above and below the barrel. There are 3 on top and one on bottom. Proper timing is one of the most difficult manufacturing aspects of these handguns (read all CZ's, Tanfoglios, and 1911/2011's). Thus, many manufacturers don't take the time or money to do it properly; this is especially true since most people don't put thousands of rounds through their guns like competitive shooters do. In the Gold Team's case, the wear from improper timing will be accelerated due to the additional weight of the cone comp on the end of the barrel. Most of these gun types are improperly timed against the slide stop so that the slide stop will break approximately every 5000 rounds.

Unfortunately, the Gold Team is most often improperly timed against the upper lugs so that the ridged pieces on top of the barrel will deform to a point where the gun is unusable without a new barrel after approximately 3 to 8,000 rounds. Any ok 1911 gunsmith can fix this so that the barrel lasts an appropriate amount of time. That being said, the problem has been so bad in some of the Gold Team's that you literally don't want to shoot it at all until you have the timing checked out. Otherwise, irrepairable damage may occur to the upper lugs, the slide, or both.

Last time I checked, a gunsmith is usually high one hundreds to fix the barrel timing? I'm thinking around like 185?

A lot of people don't like the stock Gold Team trigger. It doesn't really bother me. I practice pulling heavy double action triggers a lot and can lay down .2 second splits with the stock 3.5 pound Gold Team trigger without any bother. You can adjust it and polish it yourself to have minimal travel and weight. It's really not bad. I would say better than any stock service pistol I've ever tried, about the same weight as some Sigs in single action, but less travel and slop.

The guys I used to know who had Czechmates didn't have any more problems with reliability than any of the guys I knew who used Trubore's and Grandmasters and custom built 2011's. They almost all require a few things be done to them for utmost reliability. That being said, once they are done, they are usually done for a long time.

Thank you for the info. Now to read up on this!

[Whoops!]

No prob

I forgot I had a vid up of me with my old Gold Team. It's all stock here. I think I was using 3n38 loads? I can't remember for the life of me. I hadn't perfected my grip at this point, it wasn't too terrible - but I've definitely improved since the vid. I wasn't really shooting for speed, as it was just a sales vid to show it was reliable. I'm thinking some of my splits might be hitting .25 or .28 seconds in the later part of the vid? I don't know.

Unfortunately, I didn't realise there was a barrel lug problem here until the guy I sold it to had a problem and I did some research on it. I can tell you this, even though the value of each of the 3 platforms is debatable, the Gold Team looked damn good for the price. I think I paid 17 or 1800 from the dealer with none of the $500 in accessories you see added (sideways mount, C-more, 170 mm mag).

Edited September 6, 2013 by Whoops!

[Wilfred]

Very nice!