Commonality of the "intersection" theory.

[dirtypool40]

Ok, this is the "little things I've noticed forum so here goes...

I have watched some of the big guys and it really seems that they have a sort of intersection they bring things back to to start shooting. For instance Jerry Barnhart and TJ seem to do everything up close to their face, putting the mainspring housing pin about 8-10" off their chin. When they draw or reload they seem to come back to this same "intersection" to begin the shooting.

I watched TJ go through stage #2 on Steve Anderson's sight and he seems to use this same "intersection" when changing shooting positions, pull the gun in, move and when you are ready to shoot again, the gun begins from that same intitial position.

There seems to be more than one way to skin it though. If you watch TGO and Strader, it looks (to me anyway) as if they come up from underneath more, but with very similiar results, returning to that position on reloads and even as a sort of low ready when transitioning.

Am I way off base here or is there something to this commonality of initial position?

[Flexmoney]

I think your on point.

The Burner talks about that some in his videos (did he mention it in class?).

Seems he brings the gun back and then presents it the exact same way every time he moves.

[Sixgun]

Frank Garcia calls that area just in front of your chin the "pocket". What you are saying makes total sense to me.

Ray

[Duane Thomas]

Jerry Barnhart calls it the Ready Position. Anytime you have to do anything to the gun, presenting it to the target, reloading, moving with it, etc. it moves back to there. That makes the final part of your presentation - extending the gun toward the target - the same whether you're drawing, reloading, or moving into position. A useful concept, I think.

[dirtypool40]

Sorry I've been asleep at the wheel, didn't subscribe to my own thread.

Jerry didn't really talk much about it in class, of course we were so busy and I was so overwhelmed, he could have and I don't remember it.

[Dead Buff]

See the website of Saul Kirsch , look at his tips. He speaks of the high ready posi...

[Flexmoney]

BTW, this is something that I likely need to address in my shooting for next year. I have a "method", but I haven't explored it (lately) to see if it is the best "way" for me.

[Dead Buff]

Do inform us on the what, how and work/not-work parts of it...

[dirtypool40]

Watching the tape of the Super Squad I see the same thing now that I look for it.

TJ, Eric, Max, TT, Chris and the Burner seem to lean towards "up then out" and everything in front of the face, that appeals to me. On the other hand TGO, Voigt, Phil, Taran and others seem to favor low sternum, "up from under" for draw, reload and movement. Both seem to work and I guess it's just a matter of preference.

Being an instructor, (working CFI for two years and some exp. as fire arms instructor) and always striving to be a good one, I hate to have a one size fits all approach to things. My job as an instructor is to find what will "turn the light on" for YOU, not what did it for me.

To my embarrassment, I have a couple of folks I have recruited into IPSC and am trying to "help" them along. I put "help" in quote because I have been trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. They are "tactically" trained and prefer a low ready position, while I like things higher up.

I figure if TGO, Strader and Voigt can win like that I will quit telling the new folks it's wrong "just 'cause I said so".

In gleeful anticipation of my upcoming class with TJ I re-read an old article about a class with him, and how he's a "reformed simplicity nut."

I think that's the real value of this "Intersection" theory is that you learn exactly one presentation. Draw, reload, changing ports, everything. You get to the intersection and once there, proceed along the same route to your fast A's.

[Loves2Shoot]

The only real advantage of the High Ready I know of is that you see the gun in your vision, if it is lower you don't.

[wide45]

Voigt told us that if you are moving more than a few steps, the gun is down out of your vision.

See better where you are going. It also works well with his technique for entering a position.

[Flexmoney]

(DP...I thought you had a more recent thread/post where you talked of some results you had from practicing bringing the draw up, then out?)

My shooting had drifted to coming up from below. I have had to make a conscious effort to put it back into doing things from the high ready.

The end of my draw stroke had become terrible (since the last part of last year). It had, what I call, a twang or a whip to it at the end. I wasn't easing the gun to a stop at the end of the draw. My front sight had a bit of a bobble to it.

Bringing the gun up, then out in the draw has proved helpful so far. It lets me get to see the gun/sights sooner. I can get my vision on them while I press out.

[benos]

TJ, Eric, Max, TT, Chris and the Burner seem to lean towards "up then out" and everything in front of the face, that appeals to me. On the other hand TGO, Voigt, Phil, Taran and others seem to favor low sternum, "up from under" for draw, reload and movement.  Both seem to work and I guess it's just a matter of preference.

That's a good observation. It's valuable to know that we can all accomplish the same thing differently. The first group you mentioned is fine motor skilled and more "sturctured" in Temperament, while the last group is gross motor skilled, and more "open" or flexible.

be

[Bill Schwab]

Now THAT is a good observation, explains a lot to me I'm an ISTJ, very fine motor skilled.

Everytime TGO sees me shoot he asks in I was taught by the Burner and I never was, nor did I try to emulate the Burner's style.

The first group you mentioned is fine motor skilled and more "sturctured" in Temperament, while the last group is gross motor skilled, and more "open" or flexible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[AWLAZS]

(DP...I thought you had a more recent thread/post where you talked of some results you had from practicing bringing the draw up, then out?)

My shooting had drifted to coming up from below.  I have had to make a conscious effort to put it back into doing things from the high ready.

The end of my draw stroke had become terrible (since the last part of last year).  It had, what I call, a twang or a whip to it at the end.  I wasn't easing the gun to a stop at the end of the draw.  My front sight had a bit of a bobble to it.

Bringing the gun up, then out in the draw has proved helpful so far.  It lets me get to see the gun/sights sooner.  I can get my vision on them while I press out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When I make my draw to the high ready and push the gun out to the target the sights settle much quicker. I have not decided if this happens because I am pushing the gun straight out or if it is because I am more aware of getting my support hand on the gun insted of rushing to the end of the draw for the shot.

What do you guys think about that?

[Flexmoney]

I try to get my support hand on the gun as soon as it clears leather. I don't wait with the support hand in the center of the body (at the clap your hands position)...I take it toward the gun along with the strong hand. I feel that getting the support hand on the gun as fast as possible frees me up for the 'next thing'.

[mcoliver]

The end of my draw stroke had become terrible (since the last part of last year).  It had, what I call, a twang or a whip to it at the end.  I wasn't easing the gun to a stop at the end of the draw.  My front sight had a bit of a bobble to it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Same problem here.

And I think the reason for it is because most of my dryf fire draw practice has been with targets that are relatively closer. When I tested the technique on poppers out to 30m the problem became very apparent. I had to make a concious effort to guide the gun into the end stroke so the sights don't wobble too much and I can break the shot and hit the target reliably.

And here's the kicker. The same "guiding technique" in the close targets produce the same draw times as my old style. It just feels "slower." Gotta beat that into my thick skull.

As for putting the gun in front of my face, I've always done that not because I thought it was right. But I was afraid then of sweeping my other hand or not know where it's pointed if I lose sight of the gun.

[AWLAZS]

I try to get my support hand on the gun as soon as it clears leather.  I don't wait with the support hand in the center of the body (at the clap your hands position)...I take it toward the gun along with the strong hand.  I feel that getting the support hand on the gun as fast as possible frees me up for the 'next thing'.

I try to keep my hands from crossing the center point of my body to do things. I try to get the support hand on there before the push out. I think much of the dot movement at the end of the draw is from the support hand getiing its good grip at the end of the draw.

Recording my draws on video. I was very supprised about two things I noticed. I was not pushing the gun out at eye level like I thought I was. I was coming up from about holster height. I also was supprised about how the dry fire drills have made my draws less choppy much smoother.

[dirtypool40]

I need to get mine on tape. Right ow I am as fast as I have ever been, but I know there are little details I could pick up if I could watch things.

A year ago I thought I was drawing pretty cleanly, but when I saw it on tape I was apalled (sp?) to see how late my suport hand joined the action.

[AWLAZS]

The end of my draw stroke had become terrible (since the last part of last year).  It had, what I call, a twang or a whip to it at the end.  I wasn't easing the gun to a stop at the end of the draw.  My front sight had a bit of a bobble to it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Same problem here.

And I think the reason for it is because most of my dryf fire draw practice has been with targets that are relatively closer. When I tested the technique on poppers out to 30m the problem became very apparent. I had to make a concious effort to guide the gun into the end stroke so the sights don't wobble too much and I can break the shot and hit the target reliably.

And here's the kicker. The same "guiding technique" in the close targets produce the same draw times as my old style. It just feels "slower." Gotta beat that into my thick skull.

As for putting the gun in front of my face, I've always done that not because I thought it was right. But I was afraid then of sweeping my other hand or not know where it's pointed if I lose sight of the gun.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have you had some one watch you with your draw or taped it so you could see what you are doing compared to what you think you are doing?

[tightloop]

It is amazing how bad we look when we have the opportunity to view ourselves in action on tape...but then the camera always adds 10 lbs...oh...I mean our technique....

[Flexmoney]

There is a thread on Max's Forum that covers the draw. I have a longer explaination of my weak-hand movement in a post there. It addresses most of what we are talking about. http://www.maxmichel.com/forum/viewtopic.p...&highlight=grip

[mcoliver]

Have you had some one watch you with your draw or taped it so you could see what you are doing compared to what you think you are doing?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, I've began taping my dry fire sessions again and will transfer them to the computer soon. The last time I did this was a few years ago so now I'm afraid to see the bad habits I've cultivated.

[Jake Di Vita]

Never ever be afraid to face the worst aspects of your shooting. The faster someone can come to grips with the fact certain aspects of their shooting sucks, the faster they can improve it and become a solid more well-rounded shooter.

In my case, I realized my consistency on my reloads suck ass....so I need a lot more practice on them.

[kevin c]

I try to get my support hand on the gun as soon as it clears leather.  I don't wait with the support hand in the center of the body (at the clap your hands position)...I take it toward the gun along with the strong hand.  I feel that getting the support hand on the gun as fast as possible frees me up for the 'next thing'.

I try to keep my hands from crossing the center point of my body to do things. I try to get the support hand on there before the push out. ...

...I also was supprised about how the dry fire drills have made my draws less choppy much smoother.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I find the gun to be much more steady at the end of the drawstroke if I get the WH on as quickly as possible, which for me is actually bringing it over the the gun as the SH goes for the gun. It may be a twisted sort of triangle, but it still is a triangle with the shoulders at two points and the gun at the third. If my index and grip are on, the gun comes onto target very cleanly and directly.

'Course, practicing the draw more while acquiring the new technique may be helping more than the new technique itself (I've done this before).

I'm experimenting with a very high ready presentation when moving to a new shooting position - almost eye high, driving the gun straight into the target along that little string between pupil and POA, or actually dropping the gun down onto the target.

Either way, its a very small movement, and still feels "high and tight" to me. Not very tactical (can't see a blasted thing behind the gun on the SH side) but this is for our game.

Kevin C