Commonality of the "intersection" theory.

[dirtypool40]

I'm going through something similar, actually a combination of what you guys are descibing.

My draw has been really quick (for me) lately. Yesterday I hit a whole series at 20y where the first shots were hovering around 1.10. That's about .25 faster than I have ever been. No they were not a tight little ball of A's, but I was shooting A/C in about 1.40 ish. Anyway, not the point of the reply...

I am also noticing that little bounce as I try to rush getting the sites on target, and I am often firing during the "wiggle". At 20+ yards, if you fire during the wiggle you don't often get the results you were after, unless peppering the berm like a shotgun was your goal.

Anyway, I am looking into this. Maybe time for a new thread....

Back to intersection theory.

[AWLAZS]

I guess we all agree with the intersection theory exept for the guys who reach over to the holster with their week hand... unless they reload there. We just dont all have the same intersection. I know I reload at the same point I draw grasp the gun with my support hand.

[carinab]

We covered the draw at Ladies camp and Lisa, Julie, and Kay prefer a push out which will allow fine tuning of the sights as the gun goes toward the target. Athena does the "scoop" as she calls it. Part of the reasoning is that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. It is extremely fast but she said she was doing 200 draws twice daily to eliminate the bump or bounce at the end. We dry fired the draws as a group at various par times. A good portion of the class was consistently making the 1.0 and .8 sec draw in the B and above group.

[mcoliver]

I may be alone with this "little" problem but I'd like to throw out the question anyway. Has anybody ever experienced finding their weak index finger inside the trigger guard as the hands come together in the draw?

[XRe]

Has anybody ever experienced finding their weak index finger inside the trigger guard as the hands come together in the draw?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Once or twice in dry fire while *really* trying to push speed - yeah. The first contact my left hand makes on the pistol (or, is supposed to make) is the top of my left finger's 3rd knuckle (closest to the hand) meeting the bottom of the trigger guard, and it does so as part of an upward sweeping sort of motion that turns into a roll forward after it meets the trigger guard. Hard to explain - easy to show. So, as I refined the draw, it never happened again....

[Flexmoney]

Burkett's pinch and roll can solve that issue.

[AWLAZS]

Burkett's pinch and roll can solve that issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

PINCH AND ROLL ???

[XRe]

Kinda what I described above - I'm sure Matt describes it better in his book or DVDs. I'd forgotten there was a name for it You pinch your weakhand first finger in the corner formed by the trigger guard and strong hand middle finger, and then roll your weak hand up into the "cammed forward" weak hand grip position. It helps to have a checkered or serrated underside to your trigger guard for this - more traction. It really helps lock your left hand onto the gun, without have to grip hard. This makes whatever grip force you *do* use more effective - at least, in my experience

[Pierruiggi]

We covered the draw at Ladies camp and Lisa, Julie, and Kay prefer a push out which will allow fine tuning of the sights as the gun goes toward the target.  Athena does the "scoop" as she calls it.  Part of the reasoning is that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line.  It is extremely fast but she said she was doing 200 draws twice daily to eliminate the bump or bounce at the end.  We dry fired the draws as a group at various par times.  A good portion of the class was consistently making the 1.0 and .8 sec draw in the B and above group.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Could you please describe that "scoop" technique and how it differs from pushing the gun out?

As for the Burkett Pinch & Roll (which I don't know if I'm doing like he says because I did't see his videos) I have found that with a "grip taped" underside of the trigger guard my finger locks so much in place that when I roll my hand forward, my finger becomes trapped and under pressure. It actually turns red and numb from the lack of blood circulation. Locked hand? Yes. Comfortable (for me)? No.

It works fine without the grip tape though.

[mcoliver]

The scoop is another method of drawing the gun. I think the Burner uses it. And after typing so much to describe it, I realized somebody can probably explain it better with less words.

[zorba]

Mcoliver twice , one ad got dq, weird stuff man.

[Flexmoney]

As mcoliver said, the "scoop" is a way to grab the gun from the hoslter. I think that is a bit different than some of the stuff we have been talking about here...but, we have drifted pretty hard to draw techniques.

In the scoop, the strong hand ride up the back side of the holster so that the social finger slides along the underside of the trigger-guard. The hand then hits the front strap and you "scoop" the gun up out of the holster. It can be real fast...and it often leads to a poor grip.

If I tried the scoop with my holster, my gun would end up tumbling down range at some point. I much prefer the method that Burkett shows on his DVD's. He has shooters come beside the grip...about an inch or two out...then come into the grip laterally. Works from any hand position.

[shred]

The rest of the 'scoop' draw usually involves throwing the gun out to the end of your arms in as straight a line as possible. With a lot of practice (see Athena's 200x/day), your sights will be lined up where you want them and the first shot will be extremely fast. Without that practice, or with some other encumbrance to the draw, you either end up taking a marginal shot, or waiting around until you can move the sights where you want them.

The up-n-out draw drives the gun along a longer path, but course corrections can be made before the draw is complete if needed.

[XRe]

The up-n-out draw drives the gun along a longer path, but course corrections can be made before the draw is complete if needed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not to mention that, on "burn distance" targets, there's no reason you can't start engaging before your arms are at full extension. Brian talks about this on page 53, BTW - "In this type of scenario, it's possible to get a head start on the shooting before the gun is fully mounted"....

When trying the other way (straight diagnol line), I could never tell where the gun was pointed until I completed the draw. This way, as soon as my hands meet up, and I start extending, I've pretty much got my index....

[mcoliver]

Mcoliver twice , one ad got dq, weird stuff man.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I'm lucky it hasn't occured yet in live fire (considering I'm releasing the safety before the weak hand gets contact.) Which only means I'm doing something else in live fire than in my dry fire which I hope I can reconcile except for that "bad" part.

[AWLAZS]

  I much prefer the method that Burkett shows on his DVD's.  He has shooters come beside the grip...about an inch or two out...then come into the grip laterally.  Works from any hand position.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is that the pinch?

[XRe]

Here, he's talking about strong hand to the gun, not weak hand So, no, not the pinch. Although - my impression of Matt's draw was that the strong hand should get on the gun the same way it leaves the gun - not always from beside. For surrender, yes, you arrive from the side - same way you take your hands away. For relaxed at sides, I end up trying to reach the gun with my thumb and middle finger first - so the wrist cants up towards the gun as the first move. This allows me to snake my hand around the gun without having to stop to grip it - and without having to scoop it. This is *FAR* easier for me to explain in person, though.

Of course, I haven't seen the DVDs... he might've changed techniques since 5 years ago

[Flexmoney]

The pinch and roll is a techique for getting the weak hand on the gun and in the proper position.

You'll want to watch Burkett's DVD's to get the true instruction on it. Basically, you have your weak hand in the karate-chop fashion (fingers straight and together). Then you do a reverse chop at about a 45 degree angle between the trigger guard and the front strap of the gun. You pinch your hand in until it hits the crease, then roll the hand around into the proper grip.

(You can learn a lot about grip and stance techniques from Burkett's DVD. He covers it pretty well.)

I think Brian sells the Brukett DVD's in his store.

[Athena]

Hi...just wanted to make a quick correction.... i WISH i could do the scoop but the "scoopers" in the camp were Tonda and Jody. JJ Racaza does it too. Scooping is to "scoop" the gun in one swift and smooth motion. I just do the "from down to up method" where I grab the gun as fast as i can and bring it straight up. Scooping, I admit, is faster but my thumb always gets in the way and many times suffered minor heart attacks from almost throwing the gun.

My 2 cents....

[XRe]

Scooping, I admit, is faster but my thumb always gets in the way and many times suffered minor heart attacks from almost throwing the gun.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I tried scooping for a little while and had the same experience Luckily, they were all in dry fire

[MattBurkett]

(fingers straight and together)

A good starting point is for the weak hand to be 45 degrees "kicked out" at the bottom. The fingers are straight but not tensed. Relax for the speed - on both hands.

If anyone has any questions or sees somthing posted about my technique, drop me an email - not a PM - at matt@burkettvideo.com and I will try to add what I can.

Take care,

Matt

PS I will try to follow this thread while I am teaching in TN this weekend and answer any questions. :-)