M-4 IDEAL SCOPE?

[lndshrk]

My assistant, whose daughter is about to ship out to Iraq to fly helicopters, came to me and said that the Army has issued her an M-4, but she has to purchase her own scope for the rifle. I find this unbelievable!

It has been suggested that she purchase almost any Trijicon handle mounted scope. Does anyone have a more specific or better recommendation? Money is somewhat of an issue, so nothing too exotic, please.

[latewatch]

Stick with either an ACOG or an Aimpoint ML2. Both are battle proven and will hold up under the conditions.

[BigDave]

I have also heard, from a co-worker who's son is in Iraq, that they have used and like the Eotech 512 or whichever is the night-vision compatible model. If it makes any difference, the soldier in question is a Ranger in an infantry role.

Same situation, my co-worker purchased the sight here and shipped it overseas to his son and a comrade.

My question is, I read on the Eotech and Aimpoint websites that they both have military contracts to produce over 100,000 sights? Where the hell are they if they're not on our soldiers weapons? I realize they might not be made yet, but damn.

[Scooter]

This isn't surprising. A LE sniper has created this site http://www.adoptasniper.org The whole point of the program is to bypass the military to get supplies. Basically guys in the field would e-mail him the things they need. He tries to get stuff donated and ships it out immediately. About 2 weeks later they have the gear they need.

If you look at the list of commonly requrested items http://www.adoptasniper.org/items.html they have Aimpoint and Eotech (AA batteries) in high demand.

[smokshwn]

Why a carry handle mounted scope on an M4, it is by definition a flattop?

Anyway:

For a red dot type site I will state right up front that for any three gun type of use

I am a big fan of the Eotech. However if one is going to play in the sandbox it is very difficult (close to impossible) to beat the aimpoint. For those of us who use our weapon for recreation (albeit hard recreation) the EO is more than enough. But for those who use their weapon on a daily basis as the only tool between them and lethal threats I think the aimpoint is a better option. Durability, mounting, battery life are all stronger on the Aimpoint side of the equation.

The Trij ACOG's are without peer but also are double to triple the cost of the above options and take a little more training and practice to be proficient. The only reason I say that is with a primary MOS as a pilot it may be easier to go with a red dot put it on the threat and squeeze type of setup. Stay away from the Trijicon reflex scopes.

If you really want to get a well reasoned opinion from a much more qualified person, than I look at this thread Jeff's opinion He posts under the username DOT, Trident Concepts.

Look for Jeff Gonzales opinion on EO or Aimpoint. I have taken three classes from Jeff and I will say without a doubt his advice is more than researched and well thought out. Jeff also has the real world experience to back up his opinions. BTW if you want to talk with him and ask a question directly I am sure he would be delighted to help out a sister in arms make the right choice. Just drop him an email through GT.

Good Luck and pass on a Thank you for her service, Craig

On a side note some units (pilots, support folks etc) may be a bit further down the line when it comes to receiving gear. Just a thought.

[Wakal]

My base M4's have the Aimpoint Comp-M attached. They work quite well, and I would be quite happy to be forced into using one in harm's way. Now, the M16 (not M16A2, or even M16A1) that are also on my account...bleah... The runtime on those is great, but like everything else...buy spare batteries.

My personal Bushmaster 16" M4 wears a Trijicon TA01NSN, and given my choice (which the Air Farce does not), I would use that scope anywhere, anytime. No batteries required.

I have some weapons equipped with EOTech, and think that they are oversized, overweight, and with a image a bit too fuzzy for long range use. For shotguns, great, but not for rifles.

Just my two cents.

Alex

[Gary Johnson]

I would recommend the Eotech.

Pilots weapons are for defensive (short range) use. The Eotech reticle is the best available for 10-100 meter shots. The AA model uses the most common battery type and has excellent battery life.

[rhino]

First of all, find out for sure and for certain whether or not her rifle will have a fixed carry handle or a flat top.

If it has a fixed carry handle, you're also going to need a "gooseneck" mount which will put the red dot over the handguard and NOT on top of the carry handle.

If it's a flat top, you're going to want some kind of backup iron sight (BUIS). You can't go wrong with a cut-down carry handle, a Yankee Hill (sold by Bushmaster), or a DPMS. If you prefer one that folds out of the way, GG&G and ARMS make the best, and Wilson has one worth considering as well.

As far as the scope goes, I would think a red dot would be the best option, especially given the mission.

You can't go wrong with the aimpoint Comp M (aka M68). The clarity of the dot, ruggedness, and battery life are unsurpassed. You will need to buy an additional mount to get it situated properly on the flat top (e.g. Larue, ARMS, etc.)

On the other hand, I don't think you can go wrong with an EOTech either. Unlike the Aimpoint, you have the option of commonly available AA batteries. I think that overall it's a better tool for shooting, and I suspect that current production (each iteration is a little different) is rugged enough for league play. I'm obviously lacking personal military experience, but you can't ignore the number of photos you see of GIs with EOTechs lately, including entire detachments of US Army special forces. And mounting on a flat top is a simple matter of loosening the screw, putting it on there, and tightening the screw. No additional mount needed (unless you have a carry handle).

In any case, any electronic sight can fail, so the backup iron sights are ESSENTIAL. That's no problem with a fixed carry handle, although you do need to get a proper gooseneck mount. For the flat top, it will require an additional rear sight as I mentioned above.

I would also make sure to get the version of the Aimpoint or EOTech that is compatible with night vision.

[EricW]

While her folks are buying the scope, tell them to buy her a Glock 19 and about 10 - 33 round sticks for it. If she has to auto that helo in in indian country, she may only have time to get the hell out and beat feet for cover. The M4 is a bonus - if you can actually get to it.

When you're a pilot, your primary weapon is attached to your person.

[Zak Smith]

On the contrary, you can go wrong with an Eotech. They have a higher rate of failure in the field.

I've corresponded with several people "over there" and the Aimpoint M2 is the best of the 1x Red Dots right now.

[EricW]

On the contrary, you can go wrong with an Eotech. They have a higher rate of failure in the field.

What's the failure mode?

[smokshwn]

In talking to a couple of guys in the know Jeff Gonzales included.

The Eo fails at the mount. If you look at it there is only one mounting bolt providing tension. In the seriously hard use dept. the bolt takes all of the stress of the dings and bumps and either loosens or eventually snaps. There have also been some problems with the control panel buttons malfunctioning. The battery issue is a moot point considering aimpoint gives you battery life of 10,000 hrs (416 days). If you add the extra batter module when you buy the sight you've easily got 2 yrs to meet up with supply for some bats.

Saying this I love my Eo there is no need for the extra expense of a mount and it has survived two gunsite classes and whatever I do in 3 gun. It may serve just fine for the purposes of a weapon that most likely will serve its time mounted in the chopper, however $400 for an M2 and an arms or gg&g mount is IMHO the way to go.

here is a post from Jeff:

Gents,

Was a bit leary posting the below comments, but after reading over some of the posts figured it would be a good idea. As is evident by my other posts I am not adverse to using the EOTech if I have to, but go out of my way to use my M2. Here are a few more reasons why and are from my various experiences overseas in the recent years.

First, the EOTech was not compatible with the NVD we had to mount on the gun, which made it a day time unit. During night operations the guys who had the units without NVD were not happy with them. The interium fix was for them to use NVG's, but the urban enviornment with random lighting made it an effort in futility.

Second, the mounts were terrible. On the 18 units we had, two guys opted immediately to mount M2 (yours truly one of them). The remaining 16 were plagued with loosening mounts to the point where 2 were shot off during training evolutions. The interium fix was to incorporate as part of the chamber/light check a mount check to make sure the damn thing was still tight. UNSATISFACTORY...was the general consensus and half the team opted to remove them and go with either the carrying handle or BUIS.

Third, the power option doesn't take into consideration long operations. Once I had the M2 mounted I kept the thing loaded and on. During the various rapid responses that occurred I never had to worry about my dot being on or off. The battery life put the debate to rest as I am still using the same battery. On more than one occassion the operator would mount the weapon for GP and realize the dot had powered off. Even though the units had the different powering off option, they still were not satisfactory. Most would just adjust the setting to overide the power-off option, but got tired of it after a while.

Like anything there are always faults, I have a few with my M2. Overall, I still favor the M2. Incidently, the orignial units are still in theater, but have been replaced with other types of optics.

Later,

__________________

Jeff Gonzales

Director of Training

Trident Concepts, LLC.

[EricW]

OK, so I retract my recommendation. I had no idea the EO was that flimsy.

Best price on the Aimpoint is probably at SWFA: Aimpoint M2 at SWFA

If you surf around SWFA in the aimpoint section, you'll find everything your assistant's daughter needs: mounts, extra batt holder, batteries...

More uneducated advice from a non-operator:

- Buy the night vision compatible scope.

- Make sure that she practices using the rifle with her issued NVG that she flies with. If anybody at the range has a hissy fit or makes crappy comments over her shooting in her helmet with NVG's - kick their ass for me. (Or, I can use my FF miles and come out and kick their ass for you. It's a service that I offer.)

- Send her with enough batts to complete her tour. The worst case the aimpoint is rated for is 1000 hours/batt. Best, as prev. stated is 10,000 hours. You do the math. Personally, I'd simply never turn the scope off and bring extra batts.

[Chriss Grube]

Get the aimpoint. I have one on my duty gun. It gets tossed in and out of the car and bounced around daily. Holds up like a tank. The other thing is to make sure that she actually knows how to use it. I see a lot of people sending gear and equipment to their kids and family in the sandbox that have no idea how to use the stuff. Half the damn infantry can barely shoot anymore, so I know damn well the support troops and rotorheads aren't getting the proper training. If there is time get her the scope, 2 cases of ammo and a decent rifle instructor.

[rhino]

I'd be interested in seeing actual numbers and types of failure for both the EOTech and the M68. I don't doubt reports that the EOTech may have more problems, but it would be good to have some actual numbers before making a decision. More information is usually better.

One interesting thing is that EOTech specifically says in the instructions to not use any sort of thread locker. I have no idea why, but given that it seems the majority of problems (as related by Mr. Gonzales) are due to the mounting screw coming loose, perhaps some loc-tite would be in order.

As far as one screw goes, chopped carry handle BUISs have only one screw to hold them and they do a good job. I'm betting the screws that fail are cases of them working loose before the sudden stress is applied. Again, maybe some loc-tite would help prevent that.

I would bet that almost all mounts used for the M68 are loc-tited in place.

[ranger]

If an Army unit is high enough on the Rapid Fielding Iniative (RFI) to get M4s - they should also be getting the Aimpoints.

There is a shortage of M4s, M240Bs, and all associated optics. Units are on a priority list and they get them as they hit their mobilization station.

That said, I have an EOTECH on my civilian AR and I plan on taking it with me overseas even though I have the Aimpoint issued.

I'll see which one I prefer and post a report in a few months.

[EricW]

Just so we don't end up with major thread drift, let's post reliability issues with the EO Tech here.

This is a very good thread, btw.

[Meathead]

I don't post often but I'll add some comments here. I am an Army helicopter pilot and have a bunch of experience flying in Iraq with M-4's and M-68's (Aimpoint).

The standard issue mount that comes with the M-68 sucks. An ARMS or GG&G mount should be used. The manual states that it will return to zero if removed, it does not. It will not always keep the sight on the rifle, more on that later. The knob also sticks out farther than it should.

The rotary switch on the M-68 has a couple of short comings. My company has had several, I don't know exactly how many, "short out" causing itermitent operation. A particular problem for helicopter crewmembers with this switch is that the aircraft vibrations cause it to move. When I take off the switch is on the off position, when I land it has moved to the on position 3 or 4 clicks. That's not a huge problem because the batteries do in fact last forever, but I would like the switch to stay where I left it.

Now the War Story:

My wing man was shot down about 7 months ago. The aircraft was hit with a shoulder fired SAM, the aircraft was immediately on fire, tumbled several times after landing, and continued to burn to a crisp.

The two pilots were able to egress the aircraft under there own power with their M-4's. They were quickly secured by the ground forces we were supporting and are fine.

An earlier post mentioned that a pilot is only guarnteed to get out of the aircraft with what is on his person. That is generally true, however, I think this event shows that if you have a well thought out and REHEARSED egress plan you can get out with your long gun.

The pilots M-68 came off his M-4 during the crash sequence. It was later recovered from the wreckage, very burnt up but the dot was ON. They are sturdy.

Thoughts on holsters. The co-pilot had a nylon, one size fits most holster with the thumb break on attached to his vest. His pistol was ejected from the holster during the crash. The pilot had a Blade Tech with thumb break on attached to his vest and his pistol was retained. Lesson here is to use a holster that is made for your pistol that has a secure retaining system.

We are trying to switch from M-68's to EO Tech's, but the bean counters are slow and powerfull.

Sorry for the length of this post but there seemed to be some intrest.

John

[SGDM]

I would highly reccommend the EO Tech 552 sight system over the M68 Aimpoint or any other sighting system for the M4. We have done quite a bit of testing and comparison over the past 3 years and the majority choose the EO Tech 552.

There are many problems with the M68 and they are just not dependable. The switch, mounting, retaining zero, are a few. The EO Tech works and we have been using them while conducting combat operations for over 3 years. Oh yea, and AA batteries are plentiful.

The EO Tech is an outstanding day, night, close fight, far fight, sight.

I am also an Army helicopter pilot, the one Meathead references in his comments, firearms instructor, and avid 3-Gun competitor. Let me tell you, it was a bad feeling when I was climbing out of my burning AH and seeing that my M68 had been knocked off my M4 due to a really bad design and spending the next 2 hours in a gunfight.

I contribute my success to training, hard, realistic training, and having a plan when ol Murphy raises his head.

God Bless America!

Greg

[John Dunn]

Thanks for your service guys, it is much appreciated.

[M.E.Anglin]

No one mentioned the Luepold CQT, why not? I have used my for both compition and real world use. I like the fact that you dont need to push any buttons to get it in use. I've mounted it on my ATV while doing some pretty hard core beating. batteries seemed to last (even if I forget to turn it off, daaaa)

[rhino]

Meathead and SGDM ... ditto on Pat Sweeney's remarks ... thanks for your service, and thank you for the feedback on the red dots in use.

I was hoping to hear some positives about the EOTech eventually, and now I feel better!

[BigDave]

It seems that both the Eotech and Aimpoint have a weak point in the mount (or lack there of?).

Why not just get the GG&G or A.R.M.S. mount and stick with the M68? Electical or 100-mph tape could hold the switch in the desired position. I realize you shouldn't have to do that, but the constant high-vibration environment explains a lot. Battery life seems to be a big, big plus. I realize the mount failed, but it was in a helicopter crash! Hell, lets not forget the helo failed too. This is definately what one would call harsh duty and remember, unit remained ON with a dot.

Other than the switch, it seems as thought the only complaint with the M68 registered here was with the mount, not the unit itself, right?

Both the Eotech and Aimpoint are high quality sights, no one can deny that, and it seems as though they each have their place where one might be more reliable (mount, function, durability, etc) than the other.

BTW - thanks for your service, guys. Glad to hear that you made it out of that crash in one piece.

[EricW]

I noticed in looking at some of the Aimpoint mounts by GG&G and ARMS, that at least one uses a square shaft bolt for extra strength. I wonder if that could be the ticket for the EOTech. It's all too easy to pop smaller allen head bolts.

[smokshwn]

It really serves no purpose with respect to strength to mount the EO on another mount. You can vary the height or positioning but the problem lies in the integral hood/rail grabber of the EO. I am sure someone will eventually design a replacement or something that addresses the single screw problem.

As far as the CQT it seems that Leupold tried too hard to make a do everything scope. Red dots are so advantagious for close in work due to little or no magnification, lightweight, and huge FOV. In playing with it a little it seems to be to heavy and tubular to compete with the red dots, but not as easy or convenient in use to compete with the Trij's. Just my thoughts when I looked at them. I think if you remember they came out at around $750.00, however their price has dropped quite a bit and it seems like there are quite a few for sale used after folks decide they do not like them.

Meat and Sd, THANK YOU VERY MUCH for the service you've given us. Two very close friends just got home from Afghanistan and after some very hard work arrived safe and sound albeit with better stories.