acceptable amount of malfunctions per 1000 rounds?

[Thecelt]

im fairly new to semi auto shotguns and i dont shoot organized 3 gun, but i do my own version of it on my property for enjoyment purposes, training, etc...

im trying to get a sense of the most reliable semi auto out there and i know most swear by the M2 and the VM is making a good name for itself.

but i am curious what is an expected, acceptable malfunction rate per 1000 rounds from the following guns for example:

Stock benelli m2

Custom tuned benelli m2 by any reputable tuner

Stock VM

Custom tuned VM

Stock 930 (jmpro or other)

Custom tuned 930

Stock 1100/1187

tuned 1100/1187

Stock FN SLP

Tuned SLP

Stock CZ712

Tuned CZ712

I wouldnt expect any "hard data" on this, but i would like to hear what many of the experts would have to offer on this so that when i purchase my next sasg i can make the most informed choice possible.

[Ken_Bird]

I shoot a custom tuned VM Tactical by Benny Hill. My failure ratio is 0%

I also have A Benelli m2 have had about 2% with it. Both are really great guns. I do prefer the VM

[AustinT]

My AI M1 has somewhere from 0-2 per year, which is about 1000 rounds. None so far this year and I'm approaching 500 rounds without cleaning.

[Thecelt]

i really was itching for a M2 or VM but due to budgetary constraints i went with the jm. ideally i hope that once i get through breakin that i will end up with a very reliable gun that i could trust my life with. this is the only gun i have doubts about that i own as every other firearm i own i would trust with my life without question. i want that same trust in a sasg so hopefully the jm does that after ive run enough rounds through her. but, regardless of whether or not i keep this gun, i do plan to buy either an M2 or VM down the road. i like the M2 due to being lighter, and i like the idea of the inertia system, but i do like remingtons and i really like the versaport system they used on the vm and i think its an incredibly reliable system with a bit over a half of a lb penalty over the M2.

depending on how "reliable" the M2 or VM is over what i hope my jm will be will determine how soon i end up picking one up.

with a 2% rate on your M2 that means you get 2 malfunctions per 100 rounds. to me that is pretty terrible, i have had 3 malfunctions with the jm in 180 rounds but its still new and not broken in and from what everyone says the 930's are a bit rough from the factory (you get what you pay for).

[gdboytyler]

I think a better criteria is "mean rounds without malfunctioning", which is what the army used for rifle testing.

http://m.military.com/daily-news/2013/06/14/army-gun-makers-didnt-meet-reliability-standard.html

"The current M4 series was designed to meet a requirement written in 1990, which called for the M4 to fire 600 mean rounds between stoppages, PEO Soldiers officials said."

Ive got a Stock Mossberg 930 Waterfowler with 28" bbl.

First 200 rounds, zero malfunctions, then I cleaned the gun.

Then I went 300 rounds without cleaning and started to get "failure to fire" malfunctions, and cleaned again.

I now clean the gun after 200 rounds. Im at around 1000 rounds with no additional malfunctions.

Not rigorous testing, but Id say my 930 would have 300 mean rounds without malfunctioning.

[T Bacus]

I've run two Versamax shotguns in the last two seasons. The first was stock except for a +1 tube extension. I shot ten matches with it in 2012 plus a bunch of test firing and a little practice. I didn't clean it for all of 2012, just lubricated it before each match. The gun never failed. I sold it to another shooter at the end of 2012 and so far as I know he has never had a failure with it either. My current Versamax has also never failed. It is not stock, I had Triangle Shooting Sports weld the lifter, open the load port and do a little other work on it. I also added the Carbon Arms one piece tube. One of the part time salesmen at the range I manage also competes with a Versamax, he has never had a failure with his either.

[co-exprs]

My SLP would go about 200rds of light target before it began to give me any trouble. Maybe 400 with standard 3dram loads. My versamax will go 1000 relaible, light target loads without a hiccup. No problem. I've never run it longer than that between cleanings.

[Thecelt]

good stuff so far, and with these reports the versamax is looking very reliable. im looking forward to hearing more reports about the M2. if the Vm is THAT much more reliable over the M2 then a 1/2lb weight penalty will be more than worth it.

[amccallister]

The M2 is a top contender in the reliability department. I have probably 1500+ rounds through mine so far, and have had maybe 3 jams, all of which were the shell sticking on the right side of the chamber/extractor cutout. This is a common problem with a gun with a welded lifter. I spent some time smoothing this area out and it has happened maybe once since then. I also have a Versamax that I have been shooting a lot lately, and has moved my Benelli to backup status. It has been just about as reliable as the M2, I have had a couple of light strikes and maybe one or two instances of the shell hanging up on the extractor cut out. Reliability is acceptable with both of them in my opinion, the reason I go to the Versamax most of the time is greatly reduced recoil(albeit at the expense of more weight) and slightly easier loading. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend either one for the game.

[Akkid17]

My 870 has had more issues than my versa max. I've put maybe 750 through it though so I'll see what happens over the next 1000. I do love the versa, it was a little odd to get used to the different feel of the recoil though.

[Travtastik]

My VM is at around 700 rounds with no real malfunctions. I say that cause I let some use it for a stage an he swears it didn't work right. Gun was staged with a full tube and empty chamber and he didn't hit the button to send a shell to the lifter. Spent 45 seconds racking the bolt and cussing till he pulled a shell from his caddy to load it. I tried to tell him before hand but he assured me he knew how to work a SG.

The only 930 i have experience with had a failure every 9 rounds. It always sent 2 rounds to lifter and had a lot FTE. It's currently at mossberg getting checked up so maybe it will get worked out.

[GM2B]

I have about 3000 rounds through my benelli m2 with 4-6 jams max. Out running it doesnt count as a jam!

[MarkCO]

The first VersaMax I got, I oiled the bolt, slide glide on the carrier and shot it. I took it to 2200 rounds before I tore it down and cleaned it. The number of malfunctions...ZERO. My second VersaMax I set up for a top pistol shooter to shoot his first 3Gun match. I cleaned it, ran about 20 shells through it, modified it, ran 20 shells through it plus 5 slugs and 5 buckshot. He then ran 25 rounds through it while learning the TWinS load. He shot the entire Noveske match with it and it ran 100%, he finished 7th in Tac-Scope.

The only bobbles I have had on both of the VMs combined (about 4K rounds now) were running some 2 dram loads.

If you maintain the shotgun and run quality ammo, the acceptable failure rate should be zero. Sorry, but if you are out-running the trigger, that is a malfunction and you are still making a donation to your competition.

Edited July 12, 2013 by MarkCO

[thegunnerd]

I have had zero malfunctions with my m2 as of yet, but i haven't tested it in a match . The jm pro i had got sold because of reliability foibles

[Thecelt]

the vm is sounding like its set a new benchmark for reliability in a sasg.

[Akkid17]

the vm is sounding like its set a new benchmark for reliability in a sasg.

I must be hungry, my mind went directly to sausage not Semi-Auto ShotGun. Haha.

[thegunnerd]

HAHAHAHAHAHAH ^^^

[co-exprs]

Hmmm. Not sure that post was well thought out.

[CocoBolo]

Well I'm getting a education here. I've never out run my trigger on the shotgun, I can't transition that fast, now I think if I was missing a lot shooting at the same object maybe then. But the only multi shots are normaly slugs on paper at 50 yards and nope no chace there either of overrunning the trigger.

Now back to the Question, In non competion I shot a 1100 Rem (hunting Dove in S TX) from 1964 to 2007 with a average of over 1,000 rounds a year and I don't recall any failures. I gave that gun to one of my daughters and she is still shooting it. If you hang a 14 round tube on it, and make a bunch of modifications YMMV. I have an 1100 open shot gun that I only used in two matches, the first one every shot was a malfunction, the second it ran 100%, yeah the first one I put it back together wrong.

I've read countless rants about the FN SLP, well mine has shot more than a few 3-G and most of the time it is 2 or even 3 shooters shooting the same gun. The secret, it is stock out of the box. I got mine when they were cheap $642 delivered, bought 3 of them sold the other two for $1100 each, so mine was darn near free.

The Benelli is what the big dogs run, so it has "approval", The SLP is my favorite shotgun, if I still hunted I would use it, the 1100 is a great gun. Back in the 1960's in hunting circles we talked about the mossberg as being like shooting a fence post, never have looked at them again.

I must be hungry as well.

[Thecelt]

My 930 isn't even broke in yet but I'm hoping that I've got a good one. Been so busy I haven't got to shoot it as much as I'd like. Regardless of whether I keep it or not I plan to add either the m2 or the vm as my next long gun purchase. This thread is providing some great info.

Another I wonder is if sending an average 930 to a reputable smith can provide the type of reliability that the higher end guns have. Any thoughts on that?

[MarkCO]

I must be hungry as well.

I was talking to a friend about this the other day. Between us, we have run everything, most of them twice and except for the break in period on the SLPs, our guns have pretty much always run. But, we know how to maintain them, pay attention to them and listen to them. I expect from what I know of you, you are the same.

I know a guy who put 50K on a Corvette (with no maintenance or oil changes) and then thought it was a piece of junk when it konked out on him. I also know a guy who has over 1,000,000 miles on a Vanagon.

You can't take a guy who knows what needs to be maintained and equal them with a newbie who picked up his first shotgun last week.

[Thecelt]

Hey mark, do you believe a gunsmith can take an average 930 and help it achieve VM reliability?

[MarkCO]

Hey mark, do you believe a gunsmith can take an average 930 and help it achieve VM reliability?

A good smith, probably. But the cost probably won't be worth it.

[Thecelt]

What would it cost in your opinion, and what would get done to increase reliability? Is it just a matter of a lot of polishing on rough parts or replacing things?

[bigbrowndog]

if you want to know acceptable malfunction count the answer is simply,............0. There are no acceptable malfunctions allowed in a SG. One is too many, but we need to maintain the guns acceptably or they will malfunction. If you want to know the reliability rate of a SG, then parameters need to be set, cleaned or uncleaned, oiled or un-oiled, etc. personally I would much rather have a dirty well oiled gun over a clean dry one. parts will wear and break faster leading to a malfunction on an un-oiled gun first, running substandard ammo will cause malfunctions, all these things are unknown when you ask this type of open question.

Does anyone know if the malfunctions they are having are ammo related, user related, maintenance related, conditions related, accessory related or gun related???

there are many reasons for malfunctions, very few are related directly to the gun.

Your most informed choice on a reliable new SASG, is easy to make you just have to look at what the top 15 shooters use at a major match in the division you wish to compete in, I guarantee they aren't using something unreliable.

trapr

Edited July 14, 2013 by bigbrowndog