Why no bullet overlays?

[kevin c]

For a dfferent perspective.

I was at a USPSA match yesterday where a competitor vociferously argued a hit on a NS. It was a shot just outside the A zone of the underlying scoring target, and he really wanted the hit to avoid the mike and partially offset the NS penalty. An overlay (mine, as a matter of fact, since I try to remember to have one on me for the USPSA matches I attend) was involved. The RO felt that the overlay circle as he centered it did not touch the perf. The shooter argued that the RO's placement of the overlay was incorrect (I think the shot was slightly angled, so the hole was not truly round) and that it did touch. A lot of hemming and hawing by the RO ensued. Other opinions were sought. The shooter did not have it go his way, but this goes to show that an overlay does not end the arguing or controversy or doubt.

[BillR1]

For a dfferent perspective.

I was at a USPSA match yesterday where a competitor vociferously argued a hit on a NS. It was a shot just outside the A zone of the underlying scoring target, and he really wanted the hit to avoid the mike and partially offset the NS penalty. An overlay (mine, as a matter of fact, since I try to remember to have one on me for the USPSA matches I attend) was involved. The RO felt that the overlay circle as he centered it did not touch the perf. The shooter argued that the RO's placement of the overlay was incorrect (I think the shot was slightly angled, so the hole was not truly round) and that it did touch. A lot of hemming and hawing by the RO ensued. Other opinions were sought. The shooter did not have it go his way, but this goes to show that an overlay does not end the arguing or controversy or doubt.

Thanks for posting! This is just another confirmation that overlays are NOT the end to controversy and scoring disputes that some folks claim. Regardless of the scoring method, disputes can and WILL happen when humans are involved. Human eyesight...humans with overlays...similar issues.

[steel1212]

And yet again you fail to see the real issue. People will continue to complain about a lower score being given to themselves. The issue is not that. The issue with IDPA is that the final say is with the SO instead of the bullet. To many people are getting free points they didn't earn.

[BillR1]

And yet again you fail to see the real issue. People will continue to complain about a lower score being given to themselves. The issue is not that. The issue with IDPA is that the final say is with the SO instead of the bullet. To many people are getting free points they didn't earn.

How is that different from Kevin's post? The "final say" was with the RO and not "the bullet". Even though the RO used a tool, there was still disagreement on what "the bullet" said. No difference...

[Chris iliff]

And yet again you fail to see the real issue. People will continue to complain about a lower score being given to themselves. The issue is not that. The issue with IDPA is that the final say is with the SO instead of the bullet. To many people are getting free points they didn't earn.

How is that different from Kevin's post? The "final say" was with the RO and not "the bullet". Even though the RO used a tool, there was still disagreement on what "the bullet" said. No difference...

Well not really. If we are talking about the "majority" of calls, then I want the overlay every time. Yes, there is always going to be an instance that can be cited, but the percentage of "guessing/feeling/opinions" drops way down when you have properly trained people using the overlay correctly.

I had a very similar incident as described happen to me. I clearly felt I got the "D" hit. The RO, IMHO, did not center the overlay. He was a new RO and not familiar with EXACTLY how to use an overlay. I got the Mike. I'll take the few and far between "subjective" calls with the overlay vs the every call is "subjective" without the overlay, every time.

Steel1212 is correct IMHO.

[steel1212]

And yet again you fail to see the real issue. People will continue to complain about a lower score being given to themselves. The issue is not that. The issue with IDPA is that the final say is with the SO instead of the bullet. To many people are getting free points they didn't earn.

How is that different from Kevin's post? The "final say" was with the RO and not "the bullet". Even though the RO used a tool, there was still disagreement on what "the bullet" said. No difference...

Yes and the tool was available to use to make sure it was as accurate as could be. Doesn't mean both sides are gonna like the call.

[BillR1]

And yet again you fail to see the real issue. People will continue to complain about a lower score being given to themselves. The issue is not that. The issue with IDPA is that the final say is with the SO instead of the bullet. To many people are getting free points they didn't earn.

How is that different from Kevin's post? The "final say" was with the RO and not "the bullet". Even though the RO used a tool, there was still disagreement on what "the bullet" said. No difference...

Well not really. If we are talking about the "majority" of calls, then I want the overlay every time. Yes, there is always going to be an instance that can be cited, but the percentage of "guessing/feeling/opinions" drops way down when you have properly trained people using the overlay correctly.

I had a very similar incident as described happen to me. I clearly felt I got the "D" hit. The RO, IMHO, did not center the overlay. He was a new RO and not familiar with EXACTLY how to use an overlay. I got the Mike. I'll take the few and far between "subjective" calls with the overlay vs the every call is "subjective" without the overlay, every time.

Steel1212 is correct IMHO.

The vast "majority" of shots are not subjective and don't need an overlay. If the overlay isn't going to definitively solve the few disputed calls, then it's simply a waste of time IMO. IDPA's scoring method is much faster; the shooter gets the close calls and we move along. Training and experience of the RO/SO seems to be needed in either case, so that's a wash. Bottom line, PEOPLE are still making the final call (and the occasional mistake!) regardless of the scoring method.

[steel1212]

The vast "majority" of shots are not subjective and don't need an overlay. If the overlay isn't going to definitively solve the few disputed calls, then it's simply a waste of time IMO. IDPA's scoring method is much faster; the shooter gets the close, and incorrect, calls and we move along. Training and experience of the RO/SO seems to be needed in either case, so that's a wash. Bottom line, PEOPLE are still making the final call (and the occasional mistake!) regardless of the scoring method.

Fixed it for you.

[BillR1]

The vast "majority" of shots are not subjective and don't need an overlay. If the overlay isn't going to definitively solve the few disputed calls, then it's simply a waste of time IMO. IDPA's scoring method is much faster; the shooter gets the close calls and we move along. Training and experience of the RO/SO seems to be needed in either case, so that's a wash. Bottom line, PEOPLE are still making the final call (and the occasional mistake!) regardless of the scoring method.

Fixed it for you.

Overlays are/can be incorrect also...next point?

[steel1212]

Overlays can be incorrect also...next point?

Fixed it for you again. Sure they can be used incorrectly sometimes but it beats the hell out of gimmie calls.

Close calls ARE incorrect calls. The only right call is to score the hole where it's at. Calling the close calls the higher hit is wrong and unfair. Hey if you like getting points you didn't earn more power to you I prefer to get scores what I earned.

[BillR1]

Overlays can be incorrect also...next point?

Close calls CAN BE incorrect calls on occasion. The only right call is to score the hole where it's at. Calling the close calls the higher hit is wrong and unfair. Hey if you like getting points you didn't earn more power to you I prefer to get scores what I earned.

Fixed that one for you. Calling a close shot in favor of the shooter does not always mean the shot wasn't in. It simply means it wasn't clearly out. Big difference.

[steel1212]

Overlays can be incorrect also...next point?

Close calls CAN BE incorrect calls on occasion. The only right call is to score the hole where it's at. Calling the close calls the higher hit is wrong and unfair. Hey if you like getting points you didn't earn more power to you I prefer to get scores what I earned.

Fixed that one for you. Calling a close shot in favor of the shooter does not always mean the shot wasn't in. It simply means it wasn't clearly out. Big difference.

It either is or is not.

[BillR1]

Overlays can be incorrect also...next point?

Close calls CAN BE incorrect calls on occasion. The only right call is to score the hole where it's at. Calling the close calls the higher hit is wrong and unfair. Hey if you like getting points you didn't earn more power to you I prefer to get scores what I earned.

Fixed that one for you. Calling a close shot in favor of the shooter does not always mean the shot wasn't in. It simply means it wasn't clearly out. Big difference.

It either is or is not.

That's correct, and disagreements on the "is or not" still happen regardless if overlays are used or not used.

[steel1212]

And nobody says disagreements won't happen. I just want the correct score for everybody and SO giving away points that people didn't earn Is wrong.

[BillR1]

I just want the correct score for everybody and SO giving away points that people didn't earn Is wrong.

I completely agree, and the SO taking away points that people DID earn is also wrong. I'm still unclear how any of that changes by using an overlay. The SO is still making the final call, and there are still disputes and disagreements with either method. The skill, experience, and integrity of the SO seems to have more far importance than whether or not an overlay is used in the scoring.

Edited September 26, 2013 by BillR1

[steel1212]

See IDPA SO CANT take away points by miss scoring a target in this scoring system. Actually if used correctly a overlay can't either it's either in ir not. The shooter doesn't have to agree with the call but if they don't have the target pulled and go through the procedures.

Having a overlay allows staff to make close calls correctly.

[BillR1]

See IDPA SO CANT take away points by miss scoring a target in this scoring system. Actually if used correctly a overlay can't either it's either in ir not. The shooter doesn't have to agree with the call but if they don't have the target pulled and go through the procedures.

Having a overlay allows staff to make close calls correctly.

It sounds like that using an overlay in IDPA scoring would result in lower scores, since the overlay would only take away the close points and not really "add" points anywhere. Am I understanding this correctly?

[steel1212]

The only way you add points is by shooting them. A scoring device doesn't add or subtract scores it just scores what you hit. If you allow overlays and take away the close is good enough scoring and actually score the targets as ACCURATELY as the staff can you only need the overlay to settle disputes. and yes before you ask if you ask for a overlay a lot of the times it's not gonna net you a better score but the overlay didn't take hits away from you it just outlines the hit as to where it's at.

In the end it requires to the staff to be more constant for all shooters b

[steel1212]

The only way you add points is by shooting them. A scoring device doesn't add or subtract scores it just scores what you hit. If you allow overlays and take away the close is good enough scoring and actually score the targets as ACCURATELY as the staff can you only need the overlay to settle disputes. and yes before you ask if you ask for a overlay a lot of the times it's not gonna net you a better score but the overlay didn't take hits away from you it just outlines the hit as to where it's at.

In the end it requires to the staff to be more constant for all shooters b

[GmanCdp]

DOUBLE TAP..

well I can say after shooting in the nats last week, several on our squad could have used a scoring device to their benefit..

[Strick]

DOUBLE TAP..

well I can say after shooting in the nats last week, several on our squad could have used a scoring device to their benefit..

So you are saying that the rulebook wasn't followed and that if the SO had to look closely the shooter didn't get the better score? I can't believe that.

[ktm300]

DOUBLE TAP..

well I can say after shooting in the nats last week, several on our squad could have used a scoring device to their benefit..

I can't believe that.

I can,

[bikerburgess]

the rule says you cant look too closely, what it doesn't do is define what is too closely, if I don't look closely I may call a -1 that under closer examination may be a -0 if I'm not looking closely I will be wrong both ways unless I just give anything in the general neighborhood the better score, and that is not right either.

Mike

[GmanCdp]

DOUBLE TAP..

well I can say after shooting in the nats last week, several on our squad could have used a scoring device to their benefit..

So you are saying that the rulebook wasn't followed and that if the SO had to look closely the shooter didn't get the better score? I can't believe that.

yup.. several times and once we had 3 SO's looking at 1 target, grease ring on one side of the hole but not on the side touching -0.. I guess that is what happens when you shoot on a super squad..lol..

Airplane stage, flippin dinner table stage, jail break stage, kids got lost in the corn stage..but that's ok..

[Chris iliff]

I just want the correct score for everybody and SO giving away points that people didn't earn Is wrong.

I completely agree, and the SO taking away points that people DID earn is also wrong. I'm still unclear how any of that changes by using an overlay. The SO is still making the final call, and there are still disputes and disagreements with either method. The skill, experience, and integrity of the SO seems to have more far importance than whether or not an overlay is used in the scoring.

I'll try once more. What you fail to admit/recognize is using overlays is far more accurate than not using them. Yes, there will be questionable calls, but look..........

What you are not understanding is the overlay will produce the correct call the vast majority of the time. The calls are repeatable and can be reached the same way each time by properly trained officials.

Someone's judgement (SO/RO) isn't even close to that. Probably 50/50 if we are lucky.

What you are proposing is the "anti seat belt" argument. You know the one............."well people die wearing a seatbelts, so I'm not going to wear one". In effect, you are saying that since there can still be a disagreement with overlays (just as a death wearing a seatbelt), then let's just not use overlays (no seatbelts) because we are at the same risk. You think? The risk of bad calls for and against shooters goes significantly down using overlays.

Steel1212 is so right that it is painful.