Prize Table Policy - Should there be Guidelines

[MarkCO]

No guidelines!

However, the manner in which the prizes are distributed should be published and there should be some accountability for the donated prizes and match fees.

We call this a "volunteer" sport and at some matches, the prizes get donated, but the MDs tell us the match fees are high because there is a "prize table". In some cases I question what justifies the higher entry fee when the prizes are all donated. There are some MDs that work their butts off and every match they run costs them money out of their pocket, while others, for their club or themself, are making a pretty hefty profit.

[ac4wordplay]

It seems that there's some confusion in this thread (which is probably the norm for threads, right? )

I don't think the OP is suggesting guidelines on how prizes are DISTRIBUTED (MDs can choose random drawing, or based on HOA, or based on finish within a division, or based on finish within a division and class, or..., etc.). MDs can have free reign there.

The OP seems to be noticing that many matches don't communicate how and when the prizes will be distributed. "Guidelines" to cover this issue would be beneficial.

A few years ago I traveled to a USPSA Area MG Championship. The application didn't say anything about prizes. When my squad finished shooting the match (one of the first squads to finish) I asked a high-ranking staff member about after-match activities, prizes, awards ceremony, etc. (none had been mentioned previously). I explained that I would stick around for such activities, but if nothing was going to happen I'd start my trip home promptly (rather than hanging out at the range, probably staying in [and paying for] a hotel an additional night, and probably delaying my arrival home by ~ 16 hours). The high-ranking staff member said (without hesitation or uncertainty) that nothing was planned, that there were no prizes, and I should feel free to depart. So I headed home...

A month later, at another big match, I saw some people who were at the previous match... "Dude! You won the gun! But you were gone! So it went to John! But he was gone too! So it went to Bob! But he was gone too!! You gotta be present to win..." The information that prizes existed wasn't made available to all competitors at registration (or in any timely manner) - it was only revealed to some competitors. This resulted in other competitors being deprived access to the prize table. (I'm not suggesting there was malice, impropriety, or intent to deprive some competitors of access to the prize table.)

"Asking", as some have suggested, doesn't necessarily avoid inconsistent/incorrect answers. A publicly accessible, 'published' (part of the match application, match website, shooter registration/packet, etc.) policy/procedure describing how/when prizes are distributed, could easily solve this. It would avoid competitor/staff confusion, alleviate the MD from answering the same question repeatedly, and could be used to enhance the value received by the prize donors.

The OP's proposal doesn't seem that different than the first sentence of Appendix A2 (although A2 is a rule, and the OP's proposal is for a non-binding "guideline").

[JakeMartens]

Only part of A2 are rules, others are only recommended

APPENDIX A2

USPSA Recognition

Prior to the commencement of a match, the organizers must specify which

Division(s) will be recognized.

Unless otherwise specified, USPSA sanctioned matches will recognize Divisions

and Categories based on the number of registered competitors who actually compete in the match, based on the following criteria:

1. Divisions

Level I and Level II A minimum of 5 competitors per Division (recommended)

Level III / Nationals A minimum of 10 competitors per Division

(mandatory)

2. Categories

Division status must be achieved before Categories are recognized.

All level matches A minimum of 5 competitors per Division

Category (see approved list below)

3. Individual Categories:

Categories approved for individual recognition are as follows:

a. Lady

b. Junior Competitors under the age of 18 on the first day

of the match.

c. Senior Competitors over the age of 55 on the first day of

the match

d. Super Senior Competitors over the age of 65 on the first day of

the match. A competitor over the age of 65 on the

first day of the match may enter Senior Category

only if Super Senior is unavailable.

e. Military Military personnel on current active duty orders.

f. Law Full-time law enforcement officers with arrest

powers.

4. Individual Classes:

Division status must be achieved before Classes are recognized.

Level I and Level II A minimum of 5 competitors per Class (recommended)

Level III and Nationals A minimum of 10 competitors per Class (mandatory)

If you are a level I or II you do not have to recognize anything, or you can give out participation awards to everyone.

Only Level III has mandatory recognition, and recognition is nothing more than announcing it. Nothing says that there has to be plaques, certificates or awards.

[Flexmoney]

"Asking", as some have suggested, doesn't necessarily avoid inconsistent/incorrect answers. A publicly accessible, 'published' (part of the match application, match website, shooter registration/packet, etc.) policy/procedure describing how/when prizes are distributed, could easily solve this. It would avoid competitor/staff confusion, alleviate the MD from answering the same question repeatedly, and could be used to enhance the value received by the prize donors.

Yeah...the Match Director(s) should do that, as they see fit, to promote their match.

[mosher]

As far as this year's MS Classic, I can certainly understand there being some hard feelings. There were quite a few people who forfeited their prizes because they chose to leave early, including a couple people who had their names drawn to win guns from the prize table that were not there so the guns went to other shooters.

I bet no on has hard feelings about not staying to tear down their last stage because they left early.

At the Classic the awards presentation had just started as I was walking back from tearing down the last stage, so if anyone missed the awards, there is a good chance they missed the tear down too. I'm kind of glad they don't mail random draw prizes to people who skip out on tear down.

[BillD]

As far as this year's MS Classic, I can certainly understand there being some hard feelings. There were quite a few people who forfeited their prizes because they chose to leave early, including a couple people who had their names drawn to win guns from the prize table that were not there so the guns went to other shooters.

I bet no on has hard feelings about not staying to tear down their last stage because they left early.

At the Classic the awards presentation had just started as I was walking back from tearing down the last stage, so if anyone missed the awards, there is a good chance they missed the tear down too. I'm kind of glad they don't mail random draw prizes to people who skip out on tear down.

You have the squads do teardown at a major match? That's a new one on me and I've been to a bunch of majors.

[mosher]

BillD, on 22 May 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

You have the squads do teardown at a major match? That's a new one on me and I've been to a bunch of majors.

Hell I don't really know, this was only my second major match. I saw a group of guys tearing down stages so I jumped in and did the same. My shit smells the same as everyone elses.

Edited May 22, 2013 by mosher

[BillD]

BillD, on 22 May 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

You have the squads do teardown at a major match? That's a new one on me and I've been to a bunch of majors.

Hell I don't really know, this was only my second major match. I saw a group of guys tearing down stages so I jumped in and did the same. My shit smells the same as everyone elses.

Good for you for helping. However, it's not required of paid contestants at any major match I've been to. So, giving others shit for not doing what you did (but what is not asked of competitors) is a little beyond the pale

[mosher]

BillD, on 22 May 2013 - 1:12 PM, said:

So, giving others shit for not doing what you did (but what is not asked of competitors) is a little beyond the pale

Relax guy I thought competitors had to tear down the last stage they shot.

[MarkCO]

BillD, on 22 May 2013 - 1:12 PM, said:

So, giving others shit for not doing what you did (but what is not asked of competitors) is a little beyond the pale

Relax guy I thought competitors had to tear down the last stage they shot.

Depends on the match. Some are "required" some are "please help" and others are "don't worry about it".

[Ssanders224]

BillD, on 22 May 2013 - 1:12 PM, said:

So, giving others shit for not doing what you did (but what is not asked of competitors) is a little beyond the pale

Relax guy I thought competitors had to tear down the last stage they shot.

You were spot on Mosher. The competitors at the Classic were supposed to help disassemble their last stage at the Classic.

But apparently since it was a major we should all just sit on our butts..????

[Flexmoney]

BillD, on 22 May 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

You have the squads do teardown at a major match? That's a new one on me and I've been to a bunch of majors.

Hell I don't really know, this was only my second major match. I saw a group of guys tearing down stages so I jumped in and did the same. My shit smells the same as everyone elses.

Good for you for helping. However, it's not required of paid contestants at any major match I've been to. So, giving others shit for not doing what you did (but what is not asked of competitors) is a little beyond the pale

Required at an Area 5 match a few years back (Wisconsin).

Also, shooters were required to work an Area match out west one year.

[38SuperDub]

Required to work an Area match?

[beltjones]

BillD, on 22 May 2013 - 1:12 PM, said:

So, giving others shit for not doing what you did (but what is not asked of competitors) is a little beyond the pale

Relax guy I thought competitors had to tear down the last stage they shot.

You were spot on Mosher. The competitors at the Classic were supposed to help disassemble their last stage at the Classic.

But apparently since it was a major we should all just sit on our butts..????

Let me go pull my match book, but I don't remember hearing this requirement during the shooters meeting, and none of the ROs mentioned it to me.

[sperman]

BillD, on 22 May 2013 - 1:12 PM, said:

So, giving others shit for not doing what you did (but what is not asked of competitors) is a little beyond the pale

Relax guy I thought competitors had to tear down the last stage they shot.

You were spot on Mosher. The competitors at the Classic were supposed to help disassemble their last stage at the Classic.

But apparently since it was a major we should all just sit on our butts..????

How does that work. You shoot your last stage. You stand around waiting for all the other squads to finish. You stand around for another hour so any scoring errors can be corrected, then you tear down the stage? That sounds like it is asking a lot of the competitors.

[bbbean]

How does that work. You shoot your last stage. You stand around waiting for all the other squads to finish. You stand around for another hour so any scoring errors can be corrected, then you tear down the stage? That sounds like it is asking a lot of the competitors.

It wasn't required. It was requested, but as is typically the case, 90% of the shooters standing around jumped in and got it done. A squad of 10-13 can tear a stage down pretty quick.

I don't have a problem with doing that before the prize table - it seems fair enough to me to hange around a little while on a Sunday afternoon for a shot at winning a prize at a random draw prize table. If you don't care about prizes, there's no penalty at all for shooting your last stage and going home.

BB

[whitedog]

Have only been to 2 big shoots...that said.

If the prize ( or cert ) is given at registration does it not negate all the tear down and must be present stuff? Also gives guys the ability to trade or brag. :-). The awards I understand, obviously, but why prizes at the end??

Added....in the case of random draw I mean.

Edited May 23, 2013 by whitedog

[Flexmoney]

Required to work an Area match?

Going off memory here. I didn't shoot the match. It was talked about here on the forum (of course) and some local friends went. They reported a positive experience.

I'm going to say it was ~ 6 years ago, in one of the northern Rocky states (that would make it A1, IIRC). Format was multi-day, and you worked (pasted and reset?) a scheduled period of time (half day?) and shot on a different day.

[JKSNIPER]

Any match announcement should have mention of sponsors and prizes provided by the sponsors. I would think that any requirement such as "must be present at Sunday PM drawing to win" should be in there as well.

I'm NOT saying USPSA needs a rule on this but it prevents some bad feelings from people who didn't know ahead of time and made travel/flight arrangements prior to attending the match.

I shot in Florida years ago in a "precision rifle match" and made my flight home prior to being told about any prizes.
I tried to change my flight after finding out about the after match activities and prizes etc... but the airline wanted BIG $ to just change my takeoff time so I missed out on some cool stuff.

I would have hung around but I wasn't informed prior to the match about the prizes/rules for accepting same.

[konkapot]

There were a couple of Area 1 matches I shot where you worked half a day; either RO-ing or tape monkey or chrono helper.

One in Marysville in 2000-ish and the other in...............Bend, maybe?

[kaiserb]

Should the prize table policy of a given match be a surprise to the competitors when they show up, or should USPSA issue guidelines on how to inform competitors of how the prize tables will run?

Before we go down that road, I'm not advocating that USPSA make a rule on how to distribute prizes.

What I'm suggesting is that on the registration form there should be guidance on how the prize table will run. For example, it would say, "Cash prizes to division winners, random prize draw, must be present to win." Or, "Prizes awarded in order of finish, if not present must appoint delegate to collect prize." Or, "Prizes awarded in order of finish within class (1st A, 1st B, 2nd A, 2nd B etc), must appoint delegate IN WRITING to collect prize."

It's a little annoying to go to a match only to find out you scheduled your flight to take off a couple hours after the last stage, but it's a random prize table and you have to be present to win. It's also helpful when deciding on which matches to attend if you know the prize table is distributed in a way you think is fair to the competitors. In other words, D-C class folks might prefer to go to matches with random prizes and out of towners might not go to matches where you have to be present to win a prize. Not to mention, it can be really difficult at a match to find out exactly what the prize table policy is. Often no one but the MD seems to know, and he can be difficult to track down.

I don't think there need to be complex rules about this stuff, but if USPSA is reviewing stages for acceptance as a level II match, it's probably a good idea to also issue guidance on what information to include in a registration form.

You mean like this

http://thecowtownclassic.com/index.php?id=about-the-match

[Sin-ster]

You mean like this

http://thecowtownclassic.com/index.php?id=about-the-match

Gold. Standard.