Ron Ankeny Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 This is a spin off from the shooting all A's/going too fast/going too slow thread. The concept of shooting all A's as quickly as shooting something like an Alpha-Charlie is just escaping me. Maybe it's my precision shooting background getting in the way. For example, I know I can flop my big butt on the ground at fifty yards with my PPC revovler and crank six rounds into the 8 ring or better in darn short order. To put all of them into the 9 ring or better takes a lot more time, and to put almost all of them into the 10 ring or better (with an occasional 9) requires me to really knuckle down. OK, this is not PPC it's IPSC. I'll concede on something like a wide open close yardage medium field course, with no difficult shots, it isn't going to take any longer to pay attention and shoot A's than it takes to throw hopers. In fact, it is faster to shoot and call A's because we are knowing instead of hoping and we will drive the gun better. But holy cow, I can't for the life of me understand how guys on this forum can claim it's as quick to shoot A's as it is to hold the C zone as distance increases, or the shooitng position becomes more awkward. Someone beat this concept through my thick head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 Ron, sounds like you answered your own question. But, I'll throw some stuff out there... In your PPC example, would you be taking extra time to decrease wobble...increase trigger manipulation? In IPSC, are those the important factors? Or, is letting the gun come to the Alpha more important? I was swinging thru an array of targets in a match recently (15y or so). For two of the targets, I let the first shot go as soon as my sights made it to 'brown". Called, first shot Deltas on each. I still had to swing the gun across those targets...covering the same amount of lateral swing. So...I didn't save any (measurable) time...I wasted 3 points per target. Of course, if the distance is such that the IPSC shooter's "wobble" is bigger than the A-zone, that would have to be a different factor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 But holy cow, I can't for the life of me understand how guys on this forum can claim it's as quick to shoot A's as it is to hold the C zone as distance increases, or the shooitng position becomes more awkward Ron, I think that's not the claim (or at least, it cannot reasonably be). I'll concede on something like a wide open close yardage medium field course, with no difficult shots, it isn't going to take any longer to pay attention and shoot A's than it takes to throw hopers. In fact, it is faster to shoot and call A's because we are knowing instead of hoping and we will drive the gun better That's part of it, and I understand that the claim also states that, as your skills increase, mostly by paying attention, you will find that you can shoot As now as fast as Cs before (at lower skill level). --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdragon Posted October 14, 2004 Share Posted October 14, 2004 For me I guess it is whether i'm seeing the dot or front sight or just looking through the glass or over the top of the gun. Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 A better way of looking at it is, you can find the center of the a-zone as quickly as you can find the target. Many people drop points because the just "blast at brown". Flex gave a great example of that. If shooting all A's were as easy as shooting Alpha-Charlie's, Eric Grauffel would always shoot 100% of the points. He doesn't. He usually shoots about 95% points for a match, with no penalties! I notice a number of people claim to shoot 90-95% A's. I suspect this is wrong. I think what they actually mean is they shoot 90-95% points. Assuming major and no D's, that's really 50-75% A's and 25-50% C's. Look at the nationals this year. If I didn't screw up my math, Eric shot 2013 out of 2110 points (95.4% points). But, 330 of those points were on steel where you must shoot an A. So, he shot 1683 of 1780 points on paper (94.6% points). Assuming no D's, he shot between 70% and 75% A's. Now, let's look at your PPC example. I'm guessing shooting a C is more like shooting a 6 than an 8. (I don't shoot PPC.) In fact, I'd guess an A is more equivalent to an 8. So, how fast can you shoot 75% "8"'s and 25% "6"s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Hehe...I used to p*** off the other guys on the PPC line, I'd do the first string at 7 yds in about 11sec all X's. The rest of the line would get their timing screwed up because they couldn't figure out my cadance and they were so used to firing and reloading at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 15, 2004 Author Share Posted October 15, 2004 A better way of looking at it is, you can find the center of the a-zone as quickly as you can find the target. as your skills increase, mostly by paying attention, you will find that you can shoot As now as fast as Cs before Now I get it. Like I said, I have a thick skull. Thanks guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 It all comes down to what you order from your body at LAMR. Your body will give you whatever you picture. You want speed, damn the hits, you got it. You want all A's, damn the speed, here it comes. HOWEVER, I have found that I am incapable of shooting an IPSC drill any slower than my eyes can find the A-zone and the dot can center in the target. The gun actually fires automatically for me in that state. Only when I start to pull the trigger consciously do I get in trouble. IPSC shooting has a very bad culture of speed that damages a lot of shooters. The culture of speed locally says that a solid B-M shooter will womp on the average C class duffer with speed, no matter how sloppy he shoots. This reinforces a sloppy game because it leads to victory at a local level. Regionally and nationally, the culture of speed entices us to whisper how fast the super squad shot each stage, with nary a mention of points or even mikes. The ROs ( and I love 'em ) reinforce this by talking about it all day. You want to beat shooters two classes down? Shoot fast and sloppy, brag about your times. You want to win M class or better? Shoot points at your natural speed, and work on your natural speed in practice. When you go heads up against a shooter in your class who's as good or better, you gotta beat him with points, because your raw times will be very close. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chp5 Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 You want to win M class or better? Shoot points at your natural speed, and work on your natural speed in practice. When you go heads up against a shooter in your class who's as good or better, you gotta beat him with points, because your raw times will be very close. Good stuff. Thanks Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Good post Steve. If you ever see the big boys interviewed (Saul's nationals video for example) all they talk about is shooting points. You hardly ever hear them mention speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Kwiat Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Pile-on time... Steve's the man. I couldn't agree more! A double alpha response. Also, I appreciate the analysis that Storm did. Real data to support the mindset that the guys like Eric and Max and TGO and TJ and Dave and all the other top shooters bring to a match. If you are truly aiming both shots on paper, a few Cs will happen -- not the end of the world. Similarly, I think the mindset of "what hits you're willing to accept" from a vision standpoint makes all the difference. Lately I have been trying to use the mantra that the top Production shooters use, "gotta get the points". Ds are simply unacceptable and I am now keeping track in my mind how many Ds I shoot in a match (and practice). Two years ago I couldn't begin to tell you that stat at any match I shot. As a result of this desire to get the points, I know it has changed where I aim at partial targets. This may be blasphemy to some on the forum but I personally don't believe the "center of mass" wisdom on partials cuts it for me. Not that I'm willing to take unnecessary risk but I do find myself aiming much harder on partials to still get alphas or at least an A-C. This is especially true on vertical no-shoot partials that cover the C-D zone. Now I aim just inside the A-C perf. away from the no-shoot. Keep in mind that these comments are coming from a (mostly) Open shooter who uses a 4 MOA dot. When I screw up stages, it comes from losing the "get the hits" mindset and reverting back to hose-mode. Practice time (dry or live fire) has become the time to push the "natural speed", not matches (esp. big ones) for me. "It's a marathon, not a sprint..." Or, maybe a marathon consisting of a bunch of little sprints? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bill Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Ron, when shooting A-A, not A-C, are you waiting for your sight / dot to stop? Shooting a foo-foo gun, I am currently struggling for the A-A at comfortable speed, because I feel I can't call the 2nd shot at 10y-15y very well because the dot is still dancing on the "brown". The same can apply to irons. I would guess that a improved grip would help my situation, because if I could count on having a more *consistent* dot / sight track, I could count on the dot returning to where my eyes are, the A-zone. I could break the A-A shot just as fast as the A-C shot, if my "gun management" (grip, etc) was improved. Feel familiar? Just my $0.02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 If you guys would quit preaching about getting points we could all go back to worrying about the new wizz bang that goes faster! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 A lot of good comments/posts in this thread... Honestly, although I have realized it to be true on "normal" C'sOF, it's more useful if thought of conceptually, instead of a "must-be-like-this-under-all-circumstances" rule. Think about each point you drop on every COF you shoot with the question - why did I drop that point? Was dropping that point justifiable, or "worth it"? Of course on some targets it will be. But the realization I had that inspires me to say things like - you can know you are shooting all A's as fast as you cannot - didn't have anything to do with "justifiable dropped points." How many points do we drop that we wouldn't have if we'd only planned and visualized every detail of everything we knew we needed to do, leaving as little as possible left to chance (things out of our control), or, weren't in a hurry when we shot that target, or stage, or match? The power of detailed visualization should not be underestimated. And while it may not always manifest, it certainly is fun when it does. The hard work all becomes worth it. One day I was playing around at 50 yards... and I was thinking of a line from Ed McGivern's book, which was something like - A good man with handgun is capable of drawing and placing a solid hit on a torso-sized target at 50 yds in 2 seconds or less. I could do that, but for some reason the way the words were ringing in my mind inspired me to keep perfecting it. My resolution, determination, and visualization became so strong that I was shooting A's as fast as I see it perfectly happen in my mind. There was the sound of the buzzer, immediately followed by a perfect, stopped sight picture, an effortless shot, the sight tracked perfectly up in the sky and slid right back into the notch for another prefect stopped shot. Both shots were under two seconds. It was like I was in a trance... just kept doing it and doing it. Another time I was practicing "change ups." Three IPSC targets, L - R, at approx 10, 5, and 15 yds, and one 12" steel plate between the 10 and 5 yd targets, which was at 50 yds. I can still remember it so clearly now... Out of the holster, a quick, controlled pair on the 10 yd target... mind moving uninterruptedly... simultaneously imagining and creating... "gathering the sights" and precisely placing them on the center of the 50 yd plate, the shot fires and hits without any hesitation as soon as they land on the target because I was "with them" or with "it" the whole way... still keeping good track of the sights peripherally as A's pounded into the last two targets. I did it all in my mind beforehand. Each run. Man that was fun. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 Regionally and nationally, the culture of speed entices us to whisper how fast the super squad shot each stage, with nary a mention of points or even mikes. The ROs ( and I love 'em ) reinforce this by talking about it all day. Great post Steve. However, I insist on getting recognition for being at least one RO at the 2003 FGN who still notes David Olhasso was the only shooter in three days on my stage who shot all A's. You want to win M class or better? Shoot points at your natural speed, and work on your natural speed in practice. Nows there is a training strategy in one neat tidy sentence! Good one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted October 15, 2004 Share Posted October 15, 2004 You want to win M class or better? Shoot points at your natural speed, and work on your natural speed in practice. That is a truly outstanding sentence! Reminds me of Musashi... Musashi Anderson... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 16, 2004 Author Share Posted October 16, 2004 benos: Thank you. If I wasn't so freaking cheap I'd get my behind to Arizona for some lessons and start paying for all this free coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuck in C Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 What if your natural speed is glacially slow? I shoot a high percentage of A's and rarely get any penalties but I am generally dead last in every local match because I'm so slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 16, 2004 Share Posted October 16, 2004 I don't think your "natural" speed has much to do with it. Learn to save time by being efficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Just to play a litle more off of what Steve said...and what we talked about at the range today... Perhaps...if you shoot with the goal of winning...you might not shoot your best. Also, if you shoot with the goal of doing your best...you might increase your chance of winning. ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted October 17, 2004 Author Share Posted October 17, 2004 Perhaps...if you shoot with the goal of winning...you might not shoot your best. Also, if you shoot with the goal of doing your best...you might increase your chance of winning. In the late 1970's I knew a couple of world class athletes who worked at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado. One was a shooter, the other a world class bicyclist. They competed to win, they were on the edge, they were jazzed up, and they were hungry. None of this, "If I just do my best maybe I'll win." They were sharks feeding on tuna and they went out to kick ass every time. Then again, they were some of the best in the world at what they were doing. Should our mindset be any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bill Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Look at the mindset of Lance Armstrong. I watched alot of the Tour de France this year (I was training for triathlons), and he consistently said that he was going to give it the best effort he could muster, but if there is someone better that day, or that month, so be it. He was competeing to WIN, but he did not let that override his game plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 You don't win on match day. What makes you win is the sweat you put into it before match day. People are only capable of giving 100%. There is no possible way you can give more than 100%. In practice, say you only give 80% that day, you just lost that extra 20% and you can never get it back. You can't make it up the next day by doing 120%. The top shooters are the top shooters because they practice closer to that 100% mark every day than everyone else. That sounded better in my head, not sure if it made sense here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Heart is important. Let me present this another way (for discussion)... I got to watch the Limited Super Squad shoot quite a few stages at this year's Nationals. Most of the shooters displayed plenty of heart and desire to win. I saw plenty of trying to win. Robbie won...and it seemed he did so by trusting. And, I think it is important to also recognize that Travis took second place...a great feat in this filed...and he didn't win one single stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Perhaps...if you shoot with the goal of winning...you might not shoot your best. Also, if you shoot with the goal of doing your best...you might increase your chance of winning. That little nugget might have helped me reach my goal at the NATS..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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