de03x7 Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 The WSB says to engage T1-T4 with 2 rounds each WEAK hand. Rule 10.2.8 says course of fire stipulates strong or weak hand ONLY. If the WSB does not stipulate weak hand ONLY can the shots be taken with the weak hand supported without penalty? I know that the intent is weak hand ONLY but I also intend to shoot all alphas so if we are going to score based on intent I will have a whale of a match because I also intend to do it in .0001 second. I could clarify it before shooting but what fun would that be when I could drive a truck through the designers stage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clown Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 why would you want to "drive a truck through the designers stage"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
de03x7 Posted April 24, 2013 Author Share Posted April 24, 2013 why would you want to "drive a truck through the designers stage"? All in good fun. I'm sure that they would add ONLY to the WSB and make me reshoot but I get more trigger time. It's not like there is a new truck to be won anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 The WSB says to engage T1-T4 with 2 rounds each WEAK hand... This is not a legal USPSA stage. They can hand out any penalty they wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
de03x7 Posted April 25, 2013 Author Share Posted April 25, 2013 The WSB says to engage T1-T4 with 2 rounds each WEAK hand... This is not a legal USPSA stage. They can hand out any penalty they wish. The full procedure is Upon start signal, turn, then draw and engage T1- T4 with two rounds each, perform a mandatory reload and re-engage T1-T4 with two rounds each WEAK hand. This procedure is used in many classifiers but it always says WEAK HAND ONLY. If the WSB does not stipulate weak hand ONLY can the shots be taken supported? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Well, the rules specifically state you can require strong or weak hand only. It doesn't say anything about being allowed to require weak hand supported. So my thought is that weak hand only is implied. You're basically asking if it's Ok to do something based on a technicality. Based upon the wording you have for the stage description, since it doesn't say "...engage T1-T4 with two rounds each, THEN perform a mandatory reload, THEN re-engage...," I can engage the targets, then re-engage the targets, then perform a mandatory reload off the clock (assuming I had 16 rounds in the gun). That's not the intent of the stage designer. But technically, the description does not specify that I must do those things in that order, it implies it. I would call this gaming at it's most annoying, but it's not illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 The WSB says to engage T1-T4 with 2 rounds each WEAK hand... This is not a legal USPSA stage. They can hand out any penalty they wish. The full procedure is Upon start signal, turn, then draw and engage T1- T4 with two rounds each, perform a mandatory reload and re-engage T1-T4 with two rounds each WEAK hand. This procedure is used in many classifiers but it always says WEAK HAND ONLY. If the WSB does not stipulate weak hand ONLY can the shots be taken supported? 16 rounds makes it at least a Medium course (1.2.1.2). 1.1.5.4 Medium or Long courses of fire may stipulate the use of either strong or weak hand, provided that only one hand, either strong or weak, is specified for no more than the last six (6) shots required. The procedeure you just quoted requires the last 8 rounds to be fired WHO. That's why Wide45 correctly stated it isn't a legal stage. Check some of those Classifiers you're thinking of and see how many rounds are required WHO or SHO. It's probably not more than 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 The WSB says to engage T1-T4 with 2 rounds each WEAK hand... This is not a legal USPSA stage. They can hand out any penalty they wish. The full procedure is Upon start signal, turn, then draw and engage T1- T4 with two rounds each, perform a mandatory reload and re-engage T1-T4 with two rounds each WEAK hand. This procedure is used in many classifiers but it always says WEAK HAND ONLY. If the WSB does not stipulate weak hand ONLY can the shots be taken supported? 16 rounds makes it at least a Medium course (1.2.1.2). 1.1.5.4 Medium or Long courses of fire may stipulate the use of either strong or weak hand, provided that only one hand, either strong or weak, is specified for no more than the last six (6) shots required. The procedeure you just quoted requires the last 8 rounds to be fired WHO. That's why Wide45 correctly stated it isn't a legal stage. Check some of those Classifiers you're thinking of and see how many rounds are required WHO or SHO. It's probably not more than 6. Speedshoot, maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 It's also not a legal medium course, as it doesn't have enough positions or views.... And in a speedshoot you can't require weakhand or strong hand shooting.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 It's also not a legal medium course, as it doesn't have enough positions or views.... And in a speedshoot you can't require weakhand or strong hand shooting.... Doesn't 1.2.2.3 allow the weak hand stipulation at all levels? Does it apply only to level II or higher? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 (edited) disregard Edited April 25, 2013 by Sarge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 I think 1.1.5.3 needs to be amended to include Speed Shoots. (That would make this course of fire legal.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 It's also not a legal medium course, as it doesn't have enough positions or views.... And in a speedshoot you can't require weakhand or strong hand shooting.... Doesn't 1.2.2.3 allow the weak hand stipulation at all levels? Does it apply only to level II or higher?You're right. I really hate it when I skip over the last line (1.2.2.3), and when the rulebook puts things in different sections (since 1.1.5 deals with SHO/WHO for all other course types)..... Never mind -- that could be a legal speed shoot.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Is it comstock or Virginia count. If comstock go 4 on each then reload and burn 2 on each as fast as you can. We had one like that a while ago but with head shots only and no shoots if you missed. And comstock scoring. I burned the weak hand rounds fast in the area if the target making sure to miss the no shoots. Was not stacking as I completed the cof as laid out to the letter I just had a couple makeup shots freestyle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 It's also not a legal medium course, as it doesn't have enough positions or views.... And in a speedshoot you can't require weakhand or strong hand shooting.... Doesn't 1.2.2.3 allow the weak hand stipulation at all levels? Does it apply only to level II or higher?You're right. I really hate it when I skip over the last line (1.2.2.3), and when the rulebook puts things in different sections (since 1.1.5 deals with SHO/WHO for all other course types).....Never mind -- that could be a legal speed shoot.... I did the same thing. The "Weak/Strong hand may be..." could be moved to the first paragraph to help clarify things. Speed Shoots could also be added to 1.1.5.3 to help make things less confusing. (I think this was an oversight from when the Speed Shoot course of fire was added to the rulebook. 1.1.5.3 talks about calssifiers and standards, 1.1.5.4 talks about medium and long courses. Short courses and Speed Shoots aren't covered by 1.1.5.x.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skizeks Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 The WSB says to engage T1-T4 with 2 rounds each WEAK hand... This is not a legal USPSA stage. They can hand out any penalty they wish. The full procedure is Upon start signal, turn, then draw and engage T1- T4 with two rounds each, perform a mandatory reload and re-engage T1-T4 with two rounds each WEAK hand. This procedure is used in many classifiers but it always says WEAK HAND ONLY. If the WSB does not stipulate weak hand ONLY can the shots be taken supported? So at the beep U pull out your paper and pencil and start drawing what you see. Why not? That's what the WSB says. Some wear common sense has to take over.. And there's another problem, some people have the common sense of a trash can!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matgyver Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 The WSB says to engage T1-T4 with 2 rounds each WEAK hand...This is not a legal USPSA stage. They can hand out any penalty they wish. The full procedure isUpon start signal, turn, then draw and engage T1- T4 with two rounds each, perform a mandatory reload and re-engage T1-T4 with two rounds each WEAK hand. This procedure is used in many classifiers but it always says WEAK HAND ONLY. If the WSB does not stipulate weak hand ONLY can the shots be taken supported? So at the beep U pull out your paper and pencil and start drawing what you see. Why not? That's what the WSB says. Some wear common sense has to take over.. And there's another problem, some people have the common sense of a trash can!! Gamers use uncommon sense. I'd wager many practice law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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