Abandoning fire arms. What defines unloaded.

[quicky06]

I was talking to another shooter about this and we disagreed.

I have been thinking about unloading firearms before I dump them just to be on the safe side so I can worry about other things for my first season.

What defines an unloaded firearm? D you think the chamber has to be empty or the chamber and the mag. I ask this because On my versamax I can cycle the bolt and it will not feed another round unless I tell it to ( like a M2). So if I rack the bolt and dump it does the saftey have to be on in order for it to be considered cold.

The reason I ask is that I plan on putting it on safe and racking the bolt before I dump it. But would like to know that I am ok if I forget either one.

Now the way I understand it on rifle and shotgun is that I can have the weapon loaded and on safe or no mag and an empty chamber or both. Again m just trying to give my self a cushion to avoid a dq.

[Rookie]

It depends! You will have to check the rules for the particular matches you shoot to confirm the options considered as an acceptable "safe" abandonment. If the chamber is empty and the detachable magazines are removed (no source of ammunition), and the safety is on, then you should be good to go at nearly any match. Many matches (but certainly not all) consider "safety on" to be a safe abandonment condition, regardless of whether the chamber is empty or a magazine is left in the weapon.

[Travtastik]

I would think that most place would still consider it a hot gun if there is ammo in the tube. I guess it would be best to ask the MD of your match.

I would think just putting the SG on safe would be faster then bothering with working the bolt.

[EkuJustice]

I usually Plan for 1 extra round in the gun at the end of the stage unless it will not require a reload at all for the shotgun. For the rifle and pistol I flip the safety on For the shotgun, I double tap the last target if the spare round wasnt already used and then barrel it.

[GuildSF4]

IMA rules chamber empty and ammunition feeding device removed (shotgun tube magazine empty) or safety on.

*(Doesn't matter if the removable magazine (ammunition feeding device) is empty or not.)

USPSA rules

5.3.5 Abandoning a loaded firearm in the retention device with safety off will result in a Match DQ.

5.3.6 Abandoning a loaded firearm outside of the retention device will result in a Match DQ. Note: If the shooter remains within 1 yard of the firearm as specified in [5.3.4], the firearm is not considered abandoned.

Some matches have different rules... *(as stated below have not seen any where a round in the tube is considered empty)

*Edited for clarity on IMA rules and some matches empty shotgun

Edited April 18, 2013 by GuildSF4

[CJW]

At the risk of generalization, I don't think I have ever shot a match that would consider a shotgun with a round in the tube to be "empty." Quite the contrary, if that abandoned shotgun were not on safe and you racked a round out of the tube, you'd be DQ'ed (stage or match) anywhere I have ever shot.

[MarkCO]

At the risk of generalization, I don't think I have ever shot a match that would consider a shotgun with a round in the tube to be "empty." Quite the contrary, if that abandoned shotgun were not on safe and you racked a round out of the tube, you'd be DQ'ed (stage or match) anywhere I have ever shot.

From my recollection, I think you are correct.

The practice of shooting out that spare round in order to avoid having the "safe" the gun can be a risky practice, especially for a newer shooter. The time to shoot it versus putting the safety on will be minimal and a newer shooter will have other things they are thinking about. There are some rulesets where shooting a round that is not shot "at" a target can result in a DQ. I have witnessed some nervous discussions of the practice at two major matches. The "verbal" confirmation to yourself that the gun is "on safe" that some shooters do is probably a better practice.

[Jesse Tischauser]

3 Gun Nation is now considering an unloaded chamber and a full magazine to be safe because technically it is unless your gun knows how to load itself.

[MarkCO]

3 Gun Nation is now considering an unloaded chamber and a full magazine to be safe because technically it is unless your gun knows how to load itself.

Silliness. Maybe someone should go back and look at the original rationale for the safety rules!

[Jesse Tischauser]

3 Gun Nation is now considering an unloaded chamber and a full magazine to be safe because technically it is unless your gun knows how to load itself.

Silliness. Maybe someone should go back and look at the original rationale for the safety rules!

I'm not following you. What makes a gun that doesn't have ammo in the chamber unsafe? Isn't that exactly how we all run around and stage our cruiser ready guns so they are safe?

Edited April 18, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[MarkCO]

3 Gun Nation is now considering an unloaded chamber and a full magazine to be safe because technically it is unless your gun knows how to load itself.

Silliness. Maybe someone should go back and look at the original rationale for the safety rules!

I'm not following you. What makes a gun that doesn't have ammo in the chamber unsafe? Isn't that exactly how we all run around and stage our cruiser ready guns so they are safe?

An abandoned gun is different than a gun staged to be used, especially when it comes to ROs. There is also a handling difference between handguns and long guns. It is the "unknown" condition that has to be verified that introduces the dynamic. I have never had a "staged" gun pointed at me...I have had several ROs point "unloaded" or "safe" firearms at me at matches, usually ones who were inexperienced.

I'll send Rob some ideas.

[Jesse Tischauser]

3 Gun Nation is now considering an unloaded chamber and a full magazine to be safe because technically it is unless your gun knows how to load itself.

Silliness. Maybe someone should go back and look at the original rationale for the safety rules!

I'm not following you. What makes a gun that doesn't have ammo in the chamber unsafe? Isn't that exactly how we all run around and stage our cruiser ready guns so they are safe?

An abandoned gun is different than a gun staged to be used, especially when it comes to ROs. There is also a handling difference between handguns and long guns. It is the "unknown" condition that has to be verified that introduces the dynamic. I have never had a "staged" gun pointed at me...I have had several ROs point "unloaded" or "safe" firearms at me at matches, usually ones who were inexperienced.

I'll send Rob some ideas.

Did you misstype? If they are completely empty its ok to point them at you? I'm still not following why a dumped gun is unsafe when the chamber is empty. It can't go off if it falls out of the barrel or even if someone pulls the trigger with you uprange.

[MarkCO]

No, I did not mis-type. No gun is okay to be pointed at anyone...but not everyone functions that way. You point a gun at me, I consider it loaded and you go home! A certain MD got an earful from me after one such occasion after he asserted, "but it was unloaded".

1911 pattern gun, chamber empty, loaded mag...RO does not drop mag, racks slide misses catch and now we have a chambered round and a single action trigger.

You are operating from a certain level of awareness and competence...but that is inconsistent across the sport, especially with new ROs and new shooters. Elimination of one step to ensure safety, one with an exemplary track record, is not a good idea.

I would be okay with most of the Pro shooters handling hot weapons behind me (if not on the clock) because of their proven skillset and track record of obeying the 4 laws of gun safety. But I would not be okay with an unknown behind me performing the same actions. Consistency in safety is paramount and if we remove one layer of safety control at the top, it will trickle down to where it will be unsafe.

Go read an article or two on "lock-out, tag-out" and why the multiple actions and layers have proven to be safe and effective. There is a combination of human factors and actions that go hand in hand with safety protocols. In every single fatal accident I have ever investigated, there were at least 2 things, usually three or more, that went wrong leading to the fatality. Removal of one layer leaves (in most cases) only 2 actions/malfunctions/errors left in order for a discharge to occur.

[Jesse Tischauser]

So why not just not let anyone touch the guns but the shooter?

[MarkCO]

So why not just not let anyone touch the guns but the shooter?

That is what would be preferable.

On the one stage at Noveske where the shooter completed the stage on the next berm over, the RO and the shooter's designate cleared the rifle and racked it. Probably saved 90 seconds of stage clearing time, but it was also in a berm. The RO did not independently clear the weapon so there was an added level of control.

[Jesse Tischauser]

The only fast way to unload my Benelli is by racking rounds through the chamber. I don't want anyone doing that while I'm up range shooting. I think what your trying to say is stage design typically dictates that in order for a match to flow smooth we have to unload and clear the guns as soon as they are dumped. So everyone and their brother is fondling our junk which is dangerous not the gun with the empty chamber? Is that right?

[MarkCO]

The only fast way to unload my Benelli is by racking rounds through the chamber. I don't want anyone doing that while I'm up range shooting. I think what your trying to say is stage design typically dictates that in order for a match to flow smooth we have to unload and clear the guns as soon as they are dumped. So everyone and their brother is fondling our junk which is dangerous not the gun with the empty chamber? Is that right?

Yes. That is one of the big issues to me. I also don't want ROs pressing on the shell latch on my shotgun either!

Maybe I need to design a 3Gun dump trailer. You hitch it to your gear belt and tow it around the stage with you.

[Jesse Tischauser]

The only fast way to unload my Benelli is by racking rounds through the chamber. I don't want anyone doing that while I'm up range shooting. I think what your trying to say is stage design typically dictates that in order for a match to flow smooth we have to unload and clear the guns as soon as they are dumped. So everyone and their brother is fondling our junk which is dangerous not the gun with the empty chamber? Is that right?

Yes. That is one of the big issues to me. I also don't want ROs pressing on the shell latch on my shotgun either!

Maybe I need to design a 3Gun dump trailer. You hitch it to your gear belt and tow it around the stage with you.

No doubt!!! Even better a dump barrel caddy.

[Bryan 45]

My caddy already has to carry my guns and ammo. I think he's going to want a raise if he also has to go around and clear my guns.

[dcloudy777]

Abandoned guns are "safe" based on where they are pointed and whether or not triggers get pulled, not the position of a safety or whether they are "loaded" or not. I use quotes for "loaded" because Rule 1 says all guns are always loaded. Treating guns differently based on how much ammo is in the gun is supposed to be a no-no.

Place abandonment buckets/barrels/cans whatever so that the competitor has to leave the gun pointed in a safe direction.

[-=VILLAMOR=-]

My caddy already has to carry my guns and ammo. I think he's going to want a raise if he also has to go around and clear my guns.

Next time we shoot HM together at a match, I'll be your caddy without charge. I won't even charge you for those little adjustments I may make with your guns.

[CJW]

Maybe I need to design a 3Gun dump trailer. You hitch it to your gear belt and tow it around the stage with you.

Maybe I should Photoshop a full-sized golf bag attached to the back of the belt as a "dump pouch"...

[EaZeNuTZ33]

i'm nobody and pretty new to the sport and the biggest problem I have with this sport is the sporadic rule sets at various clubs, matches,....

I watched a shooter get DQ'd Saturday for putting his safety on and barreling his shotgun. The RO let him complete the stage, then when he checked and the chamber was loaded, he was done for the day. At almost every other match I've been to, its safe OR empty, but the range (not the MD) dictates the gun has to be UNloaded completely when abandoned....regardless if you are moving forward of the gun or not. It was something possibly VERY lightly covered, if at all, and I did not remember it being on the stage description at all. If I had been before that shooter, I would have been DQ'd instead of him.

Just my opinion...if there is anyone downrange, the gun doesn't get touched until everyone is behind it....empty or not. Good pro shooters have ADs....Jesse posted a video of himself having one in a match with a shotgun afterall. If the stage is split between berms like Stage 1 was in your match Mark....I'm good with the RO or designated person clearing my rifle with the empty range in front of them (as long as they don't make any sight adjustments...ha).