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Mags in Pockets - Start on table


okorpheus
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Does 5.2.4 count if a stage starts with gun and mags on table or does that start uplift as stipulated otherwise in stage briefing? To make my question more specific, in such a start could a production shooter put a mag from the table in a front pocket or a jacket pocket further forward than allowed for start?

Obviously the stage description has a start contrary to 5.2.4 but does the fact that the rule does not apply at the buzzer mean it does not apply at all in that stage?

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5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal....

If a competitor puts a mag in a pocket forward of the hipbone at any point during a course of fire, they just put themselves in open division. (The only exception is after the last shot is fired, during unload and show clear.)

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This is in the NROI ruling section:

reated:

7/02/12

Updated:

7/08/12

Effective:

7/08/12

Rule Number:

5.2.4 Revised

Applies to:

Pistol

Ruling Authority:

Board of Directors

Status:

Released

Question:

I think that moving to open for having a magazine in my front pocket is to severe, is there anything the BOD can do to revise this?

Answer:

During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the USPSA Handgun Rules, location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point, will be allowed providing they are not removed from that apparel pocket(s) until the command “if clear, hammer down and holster”.

Edited by GigG
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hmmm...IMHO - it also appears that ruling on 5/08/11 states "...Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12." which would lead one to believe that magazines carried in the hand and/or pockets are NOT subject to the restrictions. You can hold the spare mags in your hand, you can retrieve a magazine from the ground, you can retrieve the magazine from the table, why wouldn't you be able to put one in your front pocket and use that magazine. Now, if you START with a magazine in your front pocket, then that's a no-no...

The previous rulings refer to standard start where you have magazines in your mag pouches...

I agree that NROI ruling is in order...

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hmmm...IMHO - it also appears that ruling on 5/08/11 states "...Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12." which would lead one to believe that magazines carried in the hand and/or pockets are NOT subject to the restrictions.

How did you make the connection from carrying a mag in your hand is the same as having one in a front pocket? Ya lost me.

Pat

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How did you make the connection from carrying a mag in your hand is the same as having one in a front pocket? Ya lost me.

Pat

I'm not talking about a magazine stored in the front pocket PRIOR to the start signal.

You are picking up a magazine AFTER the start signal. Mag in hand is not allowed AT the start signal. Mag in front pocket is not allowed to be used after the start signal if stored there PRIOR to the start signal. You are allowed to pick up magazines that was dropped during the course of fire - those magazines does not satisfy the division requirement, do they? Mags in hand do not satisfy the division requirement, do they? So why can't you pick up a magazine AFTER the start signal and store it anywhere on your body? If there is allowance for mags to be in a prohibited location AFTER the start signal (in hand or on ground) why can't the front pocket be one of those locations?

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I'm not talking about a magazine stored in the front pocket PRIOR to the start signal.

You are picking up a magazine AFTER the start signal. Mag in hand is not allowed AT the start signal. Mag in front pocket is not allowed to be used after the start signal if stored there PRIOR to the start signal. You are allowed to pick up magazines that was dropped during the course of fire - those magazines does not satisfy the division requirement, do they? Mags in hand do not satisfy the division requirement, do they? So why can't you pick up a magazine AFTER the start signal and store it anywhere on your body? If there is allowance for mags to be in a prohibited location AFTER the start signal (in hand or on ground) why can't the front pocket be one of those locations?

If they meant "mag in pockets" they would have said "mag in pockets". They didn't.

You can carry it in your hands. You may NOT store it "anywhere on your body" -- storage of magazines in pockets, pouches, or whatnot other than hands must be according to division requirements.

There is one specific exemption given---magazines held in hands. That's it.

As to magazines that were dropped during the course of fire---as you aren't holding or storing them on your person in any way, that has no relevance to this situation.

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If they meant "mag in pockets" they would have said "mag in pockets". They didn't.

Because the question that was asked specifically asked about mags in hand.

So, on a table start CoF, is it illegal for me to toss a mag from the table to another position in order for me to retrieve it later?

Now, all I'm saying is that it is silly to impose such a restriction AFTER the start signal when everything else relating to equipment position is allowed.

Different scenario:

You are running through a doorway during the CoF and you hit your holster on the door. In doing so, it twisted you belt around a little, but enough to put your first mag in front of your hip bone. So according to the rule, you can no longer use this mag, right?

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The ruling I posted is pretty clear. You can carry the mags anywhere you want to. You just can't use them if where you are storing them is in violation of the Division rules.

Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point, will be allowed providing they are not removed from that apparel pocket(s) until the command “if clear, hammer down and holster”.
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OK, how about this. Stage one at the Ohio match. All ammo starts in an ammo can on a barrel. I shoot revolver, btw.

The stage procedure is:

"Upon start signal retrieve all ammo to be used on the stage from the ammo can mounted on the barrel and engage targets as they become visible from within the shooting area. T8 and T9 are activated by MP1 and remain visible at rest. "

Can I put a vest on and dump all the moon clips into a pocket to use during the stage, or do I have to rack them on my belt."

I have heard no to this based on 5.2.4

"During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated other- wise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). "

The reasoning was the word "additional"

Any thoughts?

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The reasoning was the word "additional"

Any thoughts?

Again, my opinion humbly...

"Additional" was meant for any loading device that did not fit on the belt in the first place (i.e. your 6th or 7th mag or your 14th or 16th moon clip). It was meant for the standard start with all allied equipment on your person. Once the start position moved the locations of gun or allied equipment somewhere else, location restrictions SHOULD no longer apply. WSB says "retrieve all ammo to be used...from the ammo can". Well, you did...where you hold them after retrieving them should be up to you. The ammo was already "stored" in the ammo can (or on the table in the previous case). Our sport is "practical" shooting. It would be impractical to hold your moon clips/magazines on your belt when you are rushing to engage bad guys after grabbing them from where they were stored.

I believe location restriction should not apply AFTER the start signal as long as the equipment meets the requirement BEFORE or AT the start signal. I believe that was the original intent in the first place. I think that the word "after" should have been "at". Again, IMHO...

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The ruling I posted is pretty clear. You can carry the mags anywhere you want to. You just can't use them if where you are storing them is in violation of the Division rules.

Should the division restrict the location of the magazines or speed loading devices, carrying them in apparel pocket(s) forward of the restriction point, will be allowed providing they are not removed from that apparel pocket(s) until the command “if clear, hammer down and holster”.

And that ruling is for the standard start position...I don't disagree with that at all...as a matter of fact, I agree with that completely. It's what happen to the mags that was properly stored in the first place during the course of fire is what I am arguing about. On a table start, the magazines are "stored" on the table. you are allowed to hold it in your hand, which would violate the equipment position. you are allowed to reload from the ground, which would violate the equipment position. so why would putting a legally stored magazine in your front pocket be illegal? this particular scenario has not been ruled upon by NROI yet. Again - i'm talking about a legally stored magazine AT the start signal, be it on your belt or on the table.

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I understand your opinion, but I'm pretty sure that isn't how NROI is going to call it.

I don't doubt that, and I will follow the ruling. But as of now, there is not a ruling that deals with this specific situation (picking up a mag from the table). In the past, it was allowed (i.e. you can tuck the mag into your belt).

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I believe that the answer is tied to the specifics of the WSB. I cannot tell if the description says all spare ammo must come from the table or might say unloaded gun and mag starts on the table. IMO that is the key. I was an RO for stage 17 at 2012 Handgun Nationals, WSB said unloaded gun on table and all spare ammo on table. At set-up we discussed what that meant for carryiing ammo and finally went to CRO Carl Schmidt. We were told that the WBS said all spare ammo must be on the table, once the buzzer goes off where that ammo goes is up to the shooter. Here is what we saw.

1. shooter grabs two mags and stuffs them in belt mag pouches; in this case most pouches are already set for the specified division so no real issue;

2. shooter throws mag near the final port to use just in case; he doesn't want to come back to the table; does another reload from table as he passes by;

3. shooter stands mag up, at signal grabs gun runs it down on the standing mag to load and grabs couple of spares; holds mags in hand

4. shooter lines up mag with magwell on gun just short of touching the gun, at buzzer one hand one top of gun one hand on bottom of mag, slams them together and goes; reloads from table

5. shooter grabs gun, mags and loads; grabs spare mag from table into belt (not in a mag pouch) and reloads going by.

Most production/L10 shooters either shooter grabbed two mags and put them in the mag pouch or slid under belt. Limited and open shooters just grabbed a mag going by table and finished. If the WSB says all spare ammo on table at start the shooter gets to decide how to carry. If the WSB does not specify then 5.2.4 applies.

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WSB said unloaded gun on table and all spare ammo on table. At set-up we discussed what that meant for carryiing ammo and finally went to CRO Carl Schmidt. We were told that the WBS said all spare ammo must be on the table, once the buzzer goes off where that ammo goes is up to the shooter.

If the WSB says all spare ammo on table at start the shooter gets to decide how to carry.

That is precisely what I am arguing about...And that was as recent as last year...

If the WSB does not specify then 5.2.4 applies.

Correct, and I agree...completely...

No ruling needed, it is covered by the rulebook.

not really...it was always understood that the equipment location applies prior to the start signal (I know, the wording in the rulebook says "after" the start signal - it probably meant to be and should be "at" the start signat). And it was always understood that magazines that were legally stored can be retrieved since it was legally stored. you can take a mag out and put it on the ground as you went prone and still use it - even though it no longer satisfy the equipment location restriction.

What bagdad described is what i am in favor of - and how it's supposed to be...it needs to be ruled upon and clarified...Nothing in the rulebook covers this situation...

YES, a ruling is needed as you can see by bagdad45's post about last year's nationals...totally opposite to what people are saying in this thread...

Edited by racerba
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not really...it was always understood that the equipment location applies prior to the start signal (I know, the wording in the rulebook says "after" the start signal - it probably meant to be and should be "at" the start signat).

The rulebook is clear. I'm sorry you think it is supposed to say something else, but it doesn't. If you need help understanding the rule, write to Amidon or one of the other NROI instructors. Maybe I've got it wrong, but based on all the "mag in pocket" threads that have occurred here on the forums over the last few years, I doubt it.

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The rulebook is clear.

Obviously not - since 2012 nationals didn't follow the rule...as you believe it to be (bagdad's post).

What I think it "should" say is how the rules have been applied.

The mag in pocket threads started two years ago when "someone" from NROI made the controversial ruling which has since been reversed last year in July. And that was started and was focused on the mags being in the front pocket when you came to the line prior to the LAMR command... It extended to the UASC command and spiraled after that...so obviously the rule was not so CLEAR as you would like to think. If it was clear, there wouldn't have been soo many thread on the subject, would there? Mags in front pockets for PD prior to the start signal was legal up until that point... they changed that and I have no problems with that change... Picking up mags from the table and putting them anywhere have always been legal until this thread...and I still think it's still legal...hence i said that the rule "should" have been "at" the start signal instead of "after". I'm not applying the rules any differently than they have been applied in the past...including last year's nationals.

Don't worry your little heart - I have an email to NROI requesting a ruling on this matter...

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OK, how about this. Stage one at the Ohio match. All ammo starts in an ammo can on a barrel. I shoot revolver, btw.

The stage procedure is:

"Upon start signal retrieve all ammo to be used on the stage from the ammo can mounted on the barrel and engage targets as they become visible from within the shooting area. T8 and T9 are activated by MP1 and remain visible at rest. "

Can I put a vest on and dump all the moon clips into a pocket to use during the stage, or do I have to rack them on my belt."

I have heard no to this based on 5.2.4

"During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated other- wise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1). "

The reasoning was the word "additional"

Any thoughts?

If you are shooting Revolver Class Appendix D doesn't apply. So you can carry them any where you want.

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The Division equipment requirements are listed in App. D, so it most assuredly is applicable, but there is no restriction in Item 12 for revolvers in either Production (at least for speedloaders and moonclips) or Revolver Divisions.

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The reasoning was the word "additional"

Any thoughts?

Again, my opinion humbly...

"Additional" was meant for any loading device that did not fit on the belt in the first place (i.e. your 6th or 7th mag or your 14th or 16th moon clip). It was meant for the standard start with all allied equipment on your person. Once the start position moved the locations of gun or allied equipment somewhere else, location restrictions SHOULD no longer apply. WSB says "retrieve all ammo to be used...from the ammo can". Well, you did...where you hold them after retrieving them should be up to you. The ammo was already "stored" in the ammo can (or on the table in the previous case). Our sport is "practical" shooting. It would be impractical to hold your moon clips/magazines on your belt when you are rushing to engage bad guys after grabbing them from where they were stored.

I believe location restriction should not apply AFTER the start signal as long as the equipment meets the requirement BEFORE or AT the start signal. I believe that was the original intent in the first place. I think that the word "after" should have been "at". Again, IMHO...

Appendix D4 note 12.....

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To me the key phrase n the rule is unless otherwise stipulated in the stage briefing. The stage briefing stipulates otherwise in that all mags are on the barrel at the start of the stage. The question revolves around wether or not the stage briefing stipulating otherwise at the start allows you to store them however the shooter wants after retrieving them.

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