switching between open and limited

[PKS]

Hi All,

I started shooting 2.5 years ago, and I just finished my first year of competition. I am basically a 50 (+/-5)% shooter (both in classifiers and area/national matches) in both limited (SVI) and open (STI 38 super).

I have taken a one day class from Matt, and during the shooting season I dryfire almost daily and do live fire practice about 3 times a week. Despite all this, I feel that my progress is still slow. Last season I shot open for half the season, and limited for the other half.

My questions are:

Does switching guns slow my improvement?

What type of training are others doing, and what rate of progress are they achieving?

How do I know if my training is effective?

Thanks in advance for sharing your collective experiences.

-- Prashant

[racerba]

I believe that switching guns will slow your improvement.

As far as progress goes, it's different for different people, depending on their level of shooting experience, practice, and their cognitive skills.

My suggestion to you if you want to improve significantly is to stay with one gun until you get the desired result. Then you may want to switch gun until you get the same result from the second gun. Open gun and limited gun are two different games because of the sights and the mag restrictions (you can run with a big stick in open).

You will know that your training is effective if you kept track of what you did before and what you are doing now. Everything is a learning experience. The training just helps the learning go faster because you are learning from someone else who went through the experience so you don't need to. If you find yourself looking at stages and applying what you learned, then your training was effective.

[lynn jones]

pks,

welcome to the forum. i think racerba has the correct thinking in your situation.

pick one gun and run with it.

lynn

[rhino]

If you're dry firing daily and doing live fire practice three times per week, there's really not much more you can do in terms of quantity. Just make sure that the quality of your practice is good, and you will make good progress.

Or so I've heard.

[Kingman]

I am working on moving up as well. I have gone from just over 40% in June/July when I started shooting to shooting a 68% at the MidAtlantic match. I only shoot one gun though, and shoot it alot. I average about 1000 rounds a week through my open gun.

I think messing around with others will slow your improvement alot.

[PaulW]

I'm going to differ with what some of the others have said. So little time is spent actually pulling the trigger in our sport. My first question to you would be do you track and following your points percentage per match and per stage? If so what is that percentage? It should be between 90-95% on every stage for the most part. This will tell me whether or not you have the basic fundamentals down, and also point out your weaknesses (i.e. if you shoot low points on stages that require weak hand shooting). The movement up in class is in the movement, setup, transitions, draws and reloads (eventually), and splits.

What I do like about a new shooter shooting open is the little bouncing ball gives your brain great feedback, especially when leaning the fundamentals. Once you learn how to call your shots and understand what you need to see and do to make the shot then you are well on your way.

[Ron Ankeny]

Pick one and practice. Having said that, I switch between divisions more often than some guys change their socks.

Daily dry fire and three times a week live fire should put you on the fast track if you have a good training regime and decent mental management. I would think 1000 rounds per week with dry fire would get a shooter into M class in pretty short order if they understand the fundamentals and if they are developing proper technique.

As for switching guns, I seem to stay with one gun for about two months at a time, then I need a break so I switch. Probably not a good thing for most folks, but it keeps me shooting without burning out or getting bored.

[chp5]

I remember reading an excellent post By Travis T on Max Jr's forum called: To Shoot Open.

I suggest you find it and read it for yourself, but the thesis is that shooting Open will improve your LTD game in the long run. If Travis's performance this season is an indication, the thesis proves true.

I've recently decided to take his advice and give Open a try. Good luck.

Cy

[Flexmoney]

Open...Limited(10)...Production...Revolver...musket...slingshot...whatever...

The fundamentals are nearly all the same.

1. You need a reliable shooting system. (gun, mags, ammo, shooter)

2. You need to be comfortable with the shooting system. (including grip and stance)

3. You need to be able to hit what you are trying to hit. (trigger, sight control, follow thru...)

4. You need to know if you are hitting or not (call the shot).

5. You need to eliminate wated time/motion.

[PKS]

Thanks for all the great feedback. I think I will primarily shoot limited next season, but will shoot open occasionally help focus on the non-shooting aspects of IPSC. I have to admit that my prior practice was a bit disorganized, but in August I purchased Steve Anderson's book, as well as Sam Conway's book.

I was amazed at how benificial a one-day class with Matt was. Matt was able to identify some basic problems with my grip and stance. I hope that once these fundamentals sink in, combined with a structured approach to practice, I will be able to improve my game.

I've read some good threads about visual feedback during shooting, and I was curious about how much tactile feedback shooters get from the gun during a stage. Can people consistently feel the trigger reset, sense grip pressure, and make adjustment during a stage? For me, I can sometimes get this tactile feedback during practice, but in a stage, things are much more of a blur.

-- Prashant

[BigDave]

I found that shooting revolver for a while really helped my limited shooting. With the long trigger resets of the revolver and loading 6, it puts an emphasis (at least for me) on efficiency and efficacy. With 18+ rounds in a Limited gun, you can afford to take more chances than you can with a revolver. It just gives a different perspective that I found beneficial.

I know you asked about Open and Limited, but I thouht I'd share anyways.

[Flexmoney]

PKS,

You want to be able to open up all of your senses when you shoot (or do anything). Be "aware". Notice things. Be Open.

The sense that is least likely to be distorted by tension is vision. It will give you the best input/feedback.

[SmittyFL]

I'll disagree with most. I think shooting different guns will help. Broken down to it's simplest form this game, like most others, is easy.

All you have to do is hit what you're aiming at every time, and do it faster than anyone else.

It's all comes down to two fundamentals: sight picture and trigger squeeze.

I know there are other aspects that many people call fundamentals, but all they do is aid the two fundamentals above. Grip, stance, breathing, follow thru, all just assist in sight picture and trigger squeeze.

If your sights are lined up on target and you squeeze the trigger without disturbing that sight picture, it doesn't matter if you're doing cartwheels, you're going to hit what you were aiming at.

That is why I think switching guns aid's your growth. Different sighting systems, and different trigger systems (Big Dave's revolver statement, which I agree with, for example) all force you to concentrate on the two fundamentals. Breaking the shot as fast as possible while maintaing a sight picture will be done at different speeds whether you're shooting limited, or open.

I love going to the Open gun after shooting limited for a while. It's like a video game, the sights line up (cause there is nothing to line up) allowing you to break the shot so much quicker. You feel like you're hauling ass and seeing everything so well. Except so is everyone else with an open gun. The opposite going back to limited; back to focusing on the sights and forcing yourself to hold the shot until everything is lined up.

Like Flex said; open, limited, musket, slingshot, whatever, it all comes down to the fundamentals of shooting. The more time you have behind the trigger whether live fire or dryfire, no matter what gun it is, will aid you in breaking the shot while maintaining sight picture quicker.

And quicker is good!!!

My opinion of course.

[Loves2Shoot]

Some people's idea of improvement is un-realistic. You improve rapidly when you begin, because basically you don't know squat and you can get the basics down pretty quickly and drastically improve your scores. Then the work begins. The better you get the harder it is to improve. We are talking fractions of a second at a time so those improvements are hard earned. Whether you shoot open or limited or both, I don't think it really matters, the time spent practicing properly with either is what will determine your progress. Look how long TGO has been shooting, and he improves with time tiny fractions at a time and I've heard he still practices My 2-cents

[Ron Ankeny]

I guess each of us is different. I have been shooting IPSC for four years and during that time I have shot a CZ in Production, two different Limited guns, two different Open blasters, a single stack in L10 and two different Smiths in revolver division. I like the variety.

In my case, shooting seven guns across five divisions actually kept me constantly moving forward. But I think that is a temperament thing. For instance, I just spent a couple of months devoted to Open and I guess familairity does indeed breed contempt because I am ready for a change. This fall will be single stack time and this winter I will be shooting a revolver.

Blowing around in the breeze across divisions without direction gets a person no where fast. But switching between divisions with purpose and direction can be good. Still, a person only has so many resources that they can devote to shooting and there comes a point of diminishing returns. Spreading yourself too thin can be a recipie for disaster. If a limited shooter wants to try open, go for it. Wanna take a revolver for a spin? Knock yourself out. But to get really good in your platform of choice, I think there comes a time when you will need to pick one and practice.

PS

If you can master one you can master them all.