Which is Harder - Overcoming Gobbling or Making GM?

[lumpygravy]

...

Today I shot my first match at Richmond. It was a really frustrating experience. I failed to properly seat the mag four times, and my XDm malfunctioned literally dozens of times. On some stages, I was getting a stovepipe or failure to seat between every shot! I think it was because 1) my gun was really dirty and dry - I had fired some 700 rounds through it without cleaning and greasing it before the match, and/or 2) I was not using a firm enough grip when shooting weak-hand only, which caused the gun to not cycle properly.

From now on, I will ALWAYS 1) clean and oil my gun before a match, and 2) seat the mag really hard. (I asked Alex to help me make dummy rounds so I can dry-fire reloads with a fully weighted mag.)

Esther,

You shot well. Even though everyone had their share of misses, etc... today, you hit when you aimed (for the most part) and you were safe shooting each stage. One could not ask for more. All of the above issues go away with the experience, some of which you have just started to collect.

On #4: You owe David an even bigger thanks than that. Remember what happened on stage 4? or thanks to David, what might have happened but didn't.

[Sleepswithdogs]

** When I was in business school, one of our professors told us that we were surrounded by "400 of the future most powerful people in the world." The implication being that we should make friends with each other while we could. That attitude bugged me a lot about business school.

Esther, perhaps what your prof is saying sounds different to me, but I relate it to my schooling. When I am practicing, and having less that desired results with a patient I think back to school and remember a fellow student that was particularly good with that specific problem or technique and I bring in that Doctor to assist me. My classmates have become valuable sources of reference and expertise.

Tar

Edited April 9, 2013 by Sleepswithdogs

[56hawk]

On #4: You owe David an even bigger thanks than that. Remember what happened on stage 4? or thanks to David, what might have happened but didn't.

Yeah, that was close. Glad I caught her in time.

Esther, I hope the match results get posted soon. I'm pretty sure you did a lot better than you think you did. There were some really difficult stages and I think everyone was struggling to get through them.

[Esther]

Tyler - That's a bummer. If it helps, one of my mags landed in the sand too. The other times I just failed to seat them all the way.

Jon - Good reminder! See below.

David - THANK YOU for yelling, "Stop!" when my gun fell out of the holster and I instinctively began to bend down to pick it up. I'm going to forget that match happened except to practice seating weighted mags and to always clean and oil my gun before matches from now on.

Tar - That's probably a much better way to think about it. Though - I think I wasn't entirely mistaken in perceiving the "make connections while you can" vibe.

Donovan -

[edit]

I feel I've developed enough of a rapport with Esther to be able to tell her how it is.

Ha! That's what you think!

Tonight's shooting-related item:

2) cleaning and oiling my guns

Edited April 11, 2013 by Flexmoney

[TGO]

Esther, what has been modified on your gun, and what ammo are you using? Most any current production type handgun is reliable these days, regardless of brand so maybe you have a bad combination of mods or something? I'd be glad to lend advice if you want it. If not that's OK too.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Flexmoney

[d_striker]

Today I shot my first match at Richmond. It was a really frustrating experience. I failed to properly seat the mag four times, and my XDm malfunctioned literally dozens of times. On some stages, I was getting a stovepipe or failure to seat between every shot! I think it was because 1) my gun was really dirty and dry - I had fired some 700 rounds through it without cleaning and greasing it before the match, and/or 2) I was not using a firm enough grip when shooting weak-hand only, which caused the gun to not cycle properly.

From now on, I will ALWAYS 1) clean and oil my gun before a match, and 2) seat the mag really hard. (I asked Alex to help me make dummy rounds so I can dry-fire reloads with a fully weighted mag.)

I'm incredibly lazy about cleaning my guns. I have 3 XDm's and I rarely clean them. I didn't shoot at all last year due to work but will be getting back into shooting matches again this year. I shot a match yesterday for the first time in about a year. I didn't think about it at the time but after the match I realized I hadn't cleaned my pistol in over a year. What's worse is that I had probably shot at least 1000 rounds through it before letting it sit for a year. My xdm ran flawlessly yesterday. Not a single malfunction.

XDm's (and most other service pistols) are really built to be tough and reliable. They are manufactured with generous tolerances unlike custom built 1911's and 2011's. Don't listen to anyone that is quick to bash a particular pistol brand based on some type of Ford vs Chevy opinion rather than first hand experience.

I'm guessing that the stove pipe malfunctions were grip related but I'm only speculating as you haven't stated the pertinent details such as:

-what ammo were you running? ie-factory or reloads?

-what is the bullet shape/profile?

-what modifications have you done to your gun?

-what is the capacity of your mags and how many were you loading into them?

ETA-Ester, get yourself some Slide Glide. It doesn't dry up like oil does......I attribute my gun running after a year of neglect to still having Slide Glide on the rails and on top of the barrel.

Edited April 11, 2013 by d_striker

[TJ1911]

E-

It sounds like you need to do some diagnostics on your gun. First, you do want to keep it clean, and use an appropriate lube on the gun. If you typically shoot somewhere with a lot of sandy or fine soil, you don't want to lube the gun too "wet" - by that I mean use a lubricant like Slide-Glide in lieu of Break Free ot other more liquid lubricants which can attract the dust. It also occurs to me that your magazines could be contributing to the problem-something could be a little "off" since they are now plugged to 10 rounds (not sure if this is true, but that is potentially a factor; I've never had to modify a magazine like that, so that jumped out at me).

Some careful observation during practice will likely tell you a lot, and help you out in your next match.

[GuildSF4]

Hi Esther, good to hear about your match.

As for the malfunctions without seeing the malfunction it is difficult to do a good diagnosis. (When I get calls about a problem I tell the other party my diagnosis is only as good as the information I am given...)

That being said - stove piping is normally due to low slide velocity, the most common cause in a service pistol is limp-wristing, it can be caused by dirt (on most service pistols that would be a lot of dirt), or excessive friction - no lubrication (literally none), slide rubbing something (like thumb, or on a open gun scope mounting screw), there may be others however these are the most common.

[Solvability]

I only know a couple of GMs they are athletes but they are not Olympians - above average physical skills with exceptional training will get you there - you need to cross train and get your entire body balanced and focused - endurance - physical and mental are the real areas to master - seen lots of folks flash fast at first and droop later in the match.

In my opinion the classifier is a good thing to practice - baseline metric.

[BritinUSA]

Esther, If you have now cleaned and lubed up the gun then I would not change anything else before your next practice. When diagnosing problems its better to change one thing at a time before each test. If it works fine at the next match then you know to clean the gun after each match (which I think is a good idea anyway).

If it continues to have problems then perhaps keep track of when the malfunction occurs, what type of stance you had, how good was your grip, etc. And try to determine a pattern.

I've seen many people shooting XD's, I can honestly say I've never seen one with a stove-pipe malfunction.

[d_striker]

Esther, If you have now cleaned and lubed up the gun then I would not change anything else before your next practice. When diagnosing problems its better to change one thing at a time before each test. If it works fine at the next match then you know to clean the gun after each match (which I think is a good idea anyway).

If it continues to have problems then perhaps keep track of when the malfunction occurs, what type of stance you had, how good was your grip, etc. And try to determine a pattern.

I've seen many people shooting XD's, I can honestly say I've never seen one with a stove-pipe malfunction.

Get out of here with your scientific method.

All joking aside, I've seen my XDm's stovepipe in a couple different situations.

One instance was when I took my SO's sister shooting. She was limp-wristing and she also did not have solid stance/support established. She had that common new shooter, lean backwards away from the gun stance. Correcting her grip and stance fixed the issue.

The other instance involved working up light loads in 9mm for my SO and working up .40 minor loads for me. As Guild mentions above, stove pipe malfunctions are typically related to inadequate slide velocity. When I work up light plinking loads, I start so low that the slide does not reciprocate enough to function. Then I incrementally work up from there in order to establish the threshold of where the gun will start running. The malfunction of using a load that's too light is either a FTE from the slide not traveling far enough for the case to reach the ejector OR a stove pipe.

Light loads + limp wristing is a guaranteed recipe for a stove pipe or FTE malfunction. I know instantly when my SO is limp wristing my XDm 9mm when using light loads. I doubt Esther is using lights loads though; it's difficult to make 9mm minor using a reduced load.

Another less common factor with XDm's is related to the actual bullet. When a loaded magazine is loaded into an XDm, the top round in the mag sit's relatively high. I was using a home cast Lee tumble lube bullet 3-4 years ago when I ran into this. When an empty case is extracted, the "rim" of the spent case would catch on the tumble lube portion of the bullet that was in the magazine. Below is a horrible MSPaint diagram of what was going on. That's supposed to be a picture of a spent case being extracted on top of a round in a magazine. If the load was hot enough, the case would extract but would leave a nick in the next bullet's tumble lube band. If it was a lighter load the case would FTE or stove pipe while catching on the next round in the magazine.

This is a non-issue if using any bullet with a "continuous" line from the base throughout the ogive.

ETA-I also have a theory on the mag seating issues.

Edited April 9, 2013 by d_striker

[Sleepswithdogs]

Esther, I have a background in race cars and racing motorcycles. One would not run several practices and a couple of races without doing quite a bit of tear down and inspection. IMO, it's the same with competition firearms. I like to clean and inspect after every competition. That gives me the best chance that I will have an error free run the next comp. If doing several live fire exercises before your next comp., I'd suggest cleaning again before the shoot, so you know your ready to go. It only takes a few minutes, and keeps you familiar with all the parts that make it work correctly.

If your not comfortable tearing your pistol down, get someone to spend a little time with you showing the in's and out's.

By the way, that's a really good looking XD! I like the grey grip tape! I'm betting a little cleaning and lube and it will be back running great.

Tar

Edited April 10, 2013 by Sleepswithdogs

[lumpygravy]

Esther, please correct me if my memory is faulty or incorrect. Here's my recollection of the gun issues encountered:

• 1st through 4th stages of the day, the gun ran 100%
  
• 5th stage, the gun was good until the last two firing positions
  
• the last firing position was WHO at a mixture of plates at ~15-20yds
  
• yes, there were several failures to seat a magazine - but that's not the gun
  

From talking to you, the only mods/work that has been done is a trigger job and you have somewhere between 700-1K through the gun. You really like the way the gun fits your hand (better than others i.e. 1911, Glock, etc...) so the XDM is your chosen platform. All good.

This was an exceptionally long day. Starting at 9:30am, our squad did not finish the last stage until ~5:30pm.

Even though I was watching, I was not close enough to really see what happened during the multiple FTF on the WHO firing position on the last stage. I suspect a combination of failure to seat mag and short stroking the slide while trying to return the gun to battery for some failures, but not all. For the stovepipe failures, especially on the WHO, I suspect you need to put in a little WHO live fire practice time to really get a feel for how firmly you needs to grip the gun.

I'm also wondering if fatigue may have been a factor. The 2nd stage of the day had a WHO string and I don't recall you having problems there.

Lastly, like many folks facing a short ammo supply, I believe you are conserving ammo for matches and some things really have to be worked out with live fire.

[toothguy]

Esther, I have a background in race cars and racing motorcycles. One would not run several practices and a couple of races without doing quite a bit of tear down and inspection. IMO, it's the same with competition firearms. I like to clean and inspect after every competition. That gives me the best chance that I will have an error free run the next comp. If doing several live fire exercises before your next comp., I'd suggest cleaning again before the shoot, so you know your ready to go. It only takes a few minutes, and keeps you familiar with all the parts that make it work correctly.

If your not comfortable tearing your pistol down, get someone to spend a little time with you showing the in's and out's.

By the way, that's a really good looking XD! I like the grey grip tape! I'm betting a little cleaning and lube and it will be back running great.

Tar

http://video.search....rt=Babylon&tt=b

I scrub the rails with solvent on an old toothbrush and wipe dry with Q-tips. I use Mobile 1 synthetic oil on the rails before assembly.

Edited April 10, 2013 by toothguy

[toothguy]

Esther, please correct me if my memory is faulty or incorrect. Here's my recollection of the gun issues encountered:

• 1st through 4th stages of the day, the gun ran 100%
  
• 5th stage, the gun was good until the last two firing positions
  
• the last firing position was WHO at a mixture of plates at ~15-20yds
  
• yes, there were several failures to seat a magazine - but that's not the gun
  

From talking to you, the only mods/work that has been done is a trigger job and you have somewhere between 700-1K through the gun. You really like the way the gun fits your hand (better than others i.e. 1911, Glock, etc...) so the XDM is your chosen platform. All good.

This was an exceptionally long day. Starting at 9:30am, our squad did not finish the last stage until ~5:30pm.

Even though I was watching, I was not close enough to really see what happened during the multiple FTF on the WHO firing position on the last stage. I suspect a combination of failure to seat mag and short stroking the slide while trying to return the gun to battery for some failures, but not all. For the stovepipe failures, especially on the WHO, I suspect you need to put in a little WHO live fire practice time to really get a feel for how firmly you needs to grip the gun.

I'm also wondering if fatigue may have been a factor. The 2nd stage of the day had a WHO string and I don't recall you having problems there.

Lastly, like many folks facing a short ammo supply, I believe you are conserving ammo for matches and some things really have to be worked out with live fire.

Just wanted to clarify this problem isn't just with the XD but with all semi auto pistols that are not gripped firmly.

Edited April 11, 2013 by toothguy

[Esther]

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions! I was shooting Blazer Brass factory ammo. (I'd shot about 700 rounds of BB 9mm's through it prior to the match with zero malfunctions, so it wasn't that.) I bought the gun used from my friend, who installed a Powder River trigger, replaced the spring, and polished the mag release.

What's the bullet shape/profile, how can I tell what mine is, and what difference does it make?

The gun also fell from my holster into the sand twice - once at practice on Friday and once during the match (I ended up tightening the screw on my holster!) - so that may have contributed to the malfunctions as well.

Rob - Thanks so much for offering to help me fix bugs in my platform. I know you helped to develop the XDm, so you know more about the platform than anyone else. If my gun continues to give me trouble, I will ask you for advice!

As an aside, Donovan is my friend, and (I think) he was (mostly) joking. One of the joys of being a writer is being able to build rapport across time and space and yes, over a keyboard.

BritinUSA - That's the plan. We think alike!

GuildSF4 and d_striker - Thanks! Now I know that stovepipes are most often caused by slow slide velocity. d_striker - What's your theory on the mag seating?

Jon - You were almost but not entirely correct in your recollection. The gun began to malfunction on the second stage of the day, when I shot WHO. It jammed between every shot, and looking back, I may have been causing failures to feed by not dumping the mag and allowing the stuck bullet to fall out. It then performed fine the next two stages and jammed starting with the second port of the last stage, which was two-handed. The malfunctions continued from there up to the last WHO section.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Esther

[BritinUSA]

Just had a thought .... Are your magazines numbered ? It helps if you have any malfunctions to make note of which magazine you were using when the failure occurs, just in case you have an out-of-spec magazine... I suspect you already know this...

[GuildSF4]

What's the bullet shape/profile, how can I tell what mine is, and what difference does it make?

The gun also fell from my holster into the sand twice - once at practice on Friday and once during the match (I ended up tightening the screw on my holster!) - so that may have contributed to the malfunctions as well.

Bullet shape Blazer Brass 115 gr is FMJ (also called round nose although in this case it is a little more pointed than round), this shape feeds easily in almost all 9mms, so probably not your issue.

Did the malfunctions happen before or after the gun fell into the sand? If after that could be the issue (although the platform is designed to run even very dirty).

[lumpygravy]

The gun also fell from my holster into the sand twice - once at practice on Friday and once during the match (I ended up tightening the screw on my holster!) - so that may have contributed to the malfunctions as well.

I can't say about where you were shooting Friday, but the range surface at Richmond is mostly gravel. The area where your gun dropped is not sandy and your gun was sitting atop the range gravel as opposed to being buried in dirt/sand. I know. My foot was right by your gun to prevent you from picking it up before the RO got there.

Jon - You were almost but not entirely correct in your recollection. The gun began to malfunction on the second stage of the day, when I shot WHO. It jammed between every shot, and looking back, I may have been causing failures to feed by not dumping the mag and allowing the stuck bullet to fall out. It then performed fine the next two stages and jammed starting with the second port of the last stage, which was two-handed. The malfunctions continued from there up to the last WHO section.

My spotty memory is the perrogative of old age....

Based on your account, I'm beginning to conclude that the WHO strings are the primary culprit behind the gun malfunctions. You've participated in other threads concerning grip strength and at this early point in your shooting career, I'm pretty comfortable suggesting that you might need to develop this area a little more and the WHO malfunctions will cease to be an issue.

(After typing "WHO" so much, I feel like I'm channeling Dr. Seuss...)

As best as you can recall from Sunday, can you identify which malfunction(s) you experienced are the same or similar to those demonstrated in the video posted by Toothguy?

More practice clearing malfunctions would also be a good thing. It's certainly something I don't practice frequently enough.

[Esther]

BritinUSA - Thanks for bringing that up! I need to and will number my mags.

GuildSF4 - They started before my gun dropped in the sand on Sunday and after it dropped on Friday.

Jon - I'm working on developing my grip strength. The malfunctions were failures to feed and eject.

Rob -

I'd think if I were going to post that I had a problem with something like reliability that I'd probably report important facts that might have affected the issue. This is why you must take all this talk with a grain of Salt.

Lesson learned. I'll do that from now on.*

* I'm trying to decide whether to apologize or not for having misled or wasted the time of those who were trying to help me by not stating the relevant facts up front. (Max says I apologize for things that are not my fault. (To which I reply, "Sorry!")) If I did mislead anyone or indirectly provoke an insult, I'm sorry.

Edited April 10, 2013 by Esther

[BritinUSA]

Esther, no need to apologise for anything... this was a learning experience. You found its a good idea to clean your gun before any match, number your magazines and make sure that your holster works properly. That's what these forums are for....

[toothguy]

* I'm trying to decide whether to apologize or not for having misled or wasted the time of those who were trying to help me by not stating the relevant facts up front. (Max says I apologize for things that are not my fault. (To which I reply, "Sorry!")) If I did mislead anyone or indirectly provoke an insult, I'm sorry.

I think you're finding your way, and by helping you we help ourselves. There are a lot of talented, passionate people here. Since it's not face to face somethings get said in ways that normally wouldn't. I like your thread, good info, keep moving forward.

[Sleepswithdogs]

Not sure which is harder Esther, overcoming or making GM, but one thing, this is good reading!

Tar

[GuildSF4]

Esther, no need to apologize. I also believe this thread is a good source of information to many people.

Edited April 11, 2013 by GuildSF4

[Flexmoney]

Lets get back on topic and leave the gun wars (which are against the Forum Guidelines) out of the thread. If anything further needs said on that, PM a Moderator. Please don't take it upon yourself to "right the wrongs".

Ester, you are fine. No worries.

- Admin