Ammo Situation and Stage Design

[steviesterno]

I just moved to Dallas, and the local range has been running multi gun with 22s for years due to the fact that we are right by a highway and don't have much room. All the guys have regular 3 gun pistols and shotguns, and then a sweet sig 552 or M&P or 10/22 all decked out.

I shot it, and had the same amount of fun as the bigger matches.

[T Bacus]

I want to go to the match and shoot less, said me, never.

[dchang0]

Fewer but tougher rifle/handgun shots?

Tougher shots usually consume MORE ammo. We've all been to matches where somebody "goes to war" with a tough target, burning through an entire 30rd mag (or two) before finally making their hits. That's an extreme example, but it's not unheard of for people to take three to five shots at a tougher-than-usual target before hitting.

It would actually conserve more ammo to make the shots easier (especially the one-A-zone hits many people are using now) and focusing instead on generating more movement, transitions, and positions (the latter up to a limit, to keep average stage times reasonable).

In other words, say we reduce hostages/hard cover to make the A-zones less obstructed or bring in targets an average of 1 to 5yds each. To keep the match fun and challenging, we'd need to try some of the following:

• make them move to, say, one or two more shooting positions per stage
  
• increase kneeling/prone/awkward shooting stances/positions
  
• more shooting on the move (targets are close for these in most cases, but people will be trying for one-A-zone hits this time)
  
• forced (mandated) reloads at certain points in the stage (with reduced round counts, people won't be forced to do mag changes by running empty, so they'd have to be mandated to do them by the rules. I don't like mandatory mag changes, but that was in a climate where blasting was cheap; people may find mag changes less annoying in this new climate, since they're already putting themselves in ammo conservation mode and shooting slower and cautiously)
  
• add more portholes, barricades and such that don't make the shots themselves harder, just make for more movement (That is to say, instead of setting up a barricade so that it obscures half the target in the best possible position, we set up the barricade so that it forces us to move, say, two feet further to get a fully unobstructed view of the entire target.)
  

Edited January 28, 2013 by dchang0

[Luv2rideWV]

We too made the concession for our informal February match to be rimfire rifle and pistol fired at 50 and 25 yards, respectively, because a club member pointed out how difficult it was to get .233 ammo, and people are scared to use what they have. I'm even getting a little low on reloading components at home, and it is time to order more. HOWEVER - i'm suffering withdrawal symptoms - and, as such, we've decided to have us a good two-gun shoot for March. Our round count usually runs pretty low because all of our shooters are not also USPSA shooters (like me), and the total round count may be around 50, and some of us will run the course two or three times. Someday we'll get enough guys hooked on competitive shooting that we can have a USPSA affiliation.

[Thornbush]

Primers are starting to show back up. Local place just got in 2 pallets of small pistol primers. Also bullets are showing up as well seen them on the net here and there but go quick..... I think it will settle down sooner than later. Powder is still hard to come by but it will come back just be patient.....

[MarkCO]

You are telling a bunch of type A/ADHD/DDA/ID people to be patient.

[Shadowrider]

I am not dropping round count for the Noveske match, but I am also working on trying to find solutions for those who may be short on ammo.

You can always shoot 1 A on the paper.

We just had our monthly 3G club match this weekend. The match director lightened up the pistol and rifle a bit and went heavier on shotgun. What I thought was real intuitive though was that he designed the 1A hit on paper into the COF in a manner of speaking. Being that it just made more sense to go that route because he placed ammo capacity restrictions on what could be in the gun at any given time (like no more than 3 rounds in a mag, can only load 3 shotgun shells at a time before engaging a target). This sounds like it would take the fun out of it, but it was actually a blast! It presented a whole new challenge on making hits count and figuring a way to game approach the stage. He only did this on a couple of stages so one could always get their "hoser fix" on the others. It was actually one of the most fun matches we've had.

[Thornbush]

You are telling a bunch of type A/ADHD/DDA/ID people to be patient.

Your right.... I lost my mind for a minute. What was I thinkin.

[co-exprs]

The number of people who get to travel to a bunch of big matches each year is a small percentage of our shooting populace. I (and most others) only get to shoot a few big matches per year and I look forward to those matches all year long. I will change up my practice routine to include more dry fire, rim fire, airsoft and harsh language, but when I get to the big event, I want the full event I paid for and traveled to and spent months preparing for. There are lots of ways to stretch the ammo at practice so you have enough for the match. I started shooting my 10/22 at the steel challenge matches last year, because it's great for speeding up rifle and shotgun transitions at 3gun. When practicing before a big match, I do a low round count practice with tons of abandonment, retrievals, sling work, going to prone and back up for a single shot, lots of reloads. Lots of 22 practice, doing things like offhand on a 4" target at 50yds. Get that down good (not too tough), then try running laps to get your heart rate up and then shoot the same target. Truth is most of us need more work on all that none value added stuff, than on hitting targets anyways.

[Overwatcher]

While I agree not to cut round counts,I dont think we should base a decision not to go to XX match because of a lower round count.

The situation we are in can also bring more creativity to a stage with less rounds and still be fun and more technical.

We have all seen stages with only 15-20 rifle but from tricky spots.

Making the decision to go to war on a target is up to the shooter in X number of rounds vs. score.

Would I rather stand in one spot and shoot 100 rounds or 20 rounds from 5 spots with movement and transitions?

I really like the spin that the Purgatory Flats HAH added to 3 Gun.Physical requirements on the shooter.

Just dont see a lot of that,and could be a good substitute for the ammo shortages.

Any locical club or MD knows the current situation will not help build this sport or bring new shooters.

Dynamic to match outweigh any high round counts in my book.But of course just my take at it.

Austin

[Mark R]

I don't want to drift the thread, but can a match director design a non-USPSA sanctioned match stage, let's say for rifle, and dictate that all magazines can only be loaded to 10 rounds. They can be 10, 20,30, 60, or 100 round magazines, but can only have 10 loaded?

Curious about if it's legal...it would make a stage interesting to shoot....Some would still shoot 2 on target and reload, but some might decide 1 hit per A Zone without a reload...different strategies.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Mark R

[MarkCO]

Outlaw is, well, outlaw. USPSA has some restrictions on course design and stage types but magazine capacity can not be dictated except by the division appendices.

[Mark R]

I was interested in non-USPSA matches...say like Rockcastle ProAM.

[MarkCO]

I was interested in non-USPSA matches...say like Rockcastle ProAM.

That is Outlaw, the MD writes the rules and can pretty much do anything he wants.

[Mark R]

Thanks! Might be interesting to see the two strategies in action. 1A and less reloads or 2 on paper with a reload.

[MarkCO]

Thanks! Might be interesting to see the two strategies in action. 1A and less reloads or 2 on paper with a reload.

Most of us have tried it...2As is almost always faster unless it is a weird stage. You can do a reload and like 15 to 20 splits in 5 seconds which is the miss for having one non-A hit.

[EkuJustice]

I for one am not a fan of the restricted mags, max amount of rounds in the tube or any of the other lets make a low round count match to try and save ammo stuff. If someone chooses to save ammo they have the option of shooting 1A. Likewise, if someone has plenty of ammo and chooses to shoot it with 2 on everything then good for them. I go to a match to shoot, not to see how many reloads, weird shooting positions etc I can do while shooting as little as possible. In that case I would take my money elsewhere

[GoinHot]

Interesting comments. I am the match director for 3-gun in our area and have been thinking about many of the same things you guys are. We are concerned about the rifle portion of the match and thought about changing our "neutralized" paper target rule to 1 hit in the A/C, A/B or 2 hits anywhere. This gives more shooters the confidence to only take one shot on a target They can still take two shots at every target if they choose. For the folks not reloading the cost of rifle ammo, if you can find it, may lead to them not shooting the match at all if we do things the way we always have.

The other item on the table is the number of small steel targets out at distanes of 200 to 300 yards that often have shooters taking a higher number of shots. Maybe we have fewer of those and incorprate more positions for the shooter to engage them more than once as they move down range - getting closer.

These are unusual times and hopefully we can get back to a better place soon. Keep the ideas coming !!

[MarkCO]

For rifle, let them shoot rimfire at local matches. That is my plan based on what I am getting back from our shooters. No change to pistol and shotgun.

I think going to 1 shot on paper can mess folks up in the big matches. Shooting the RF rifle is a better overall trade-off to me and folks can then spend a little rifle ammo on their own for the long range practice if they want. That cuts my rifle ammo expense by about 50% for the year.

[caz41]

I want to go to the match and shoot less, said me, never.

This^

[-=VILLAMOR=-]

For our local matches that the MN 3Gun Group holds, we are planning for a lesser round count stages than normal. We will also be allowing 22LR and carbine rifles or conversions. The details are yet to be be finalized but they will likely follow the lines of Tac-Limited and Tac-Optics rules.

For personal, I not be shooting Heavy Metal at the local matches. I will be reserving my 308 ammo for the major matches only until things settle down.

[MarkCO]

We just ran a .22rf match. All steel, rifle and pistol on all 4 stages, some movement, kind of Ruger Rimfire on overdrive. Everyone had a great time from some veteran 3 Gunners to shooters shooting their first match. Went through about 100+ rounds.

[Mark R]

We just ran a .22rf match. All steel, rifle and pistol on all 4 stages, some movement, kind of Ruger Rimfire on overdrive. Everyone had a great time from some veteran 3 Gunners to shooters shooting their first match. Went through about 100+ rounds.

Mark...do you have any examples of those stages...I've been thinking about the same thing. Was thinking of using 1/2 size USPSA targets.

[MarkCO]

The nice thing about rimfire with steel is no reset.

I'll draw them up and post them. But for example...

Start in box with rifle, shoot 7 plates at 12-15 yards, move up 5 yards, change guns and shoot same plates with pistol.

[Mark R]

I let rimfire pistols shoot a side match during a USPSA match last month and the rimfire pistols were knocking over the plates...even knocking down US poppers set light. But even so, I like the idea.

We have a multi-gun rimfire group (Ruger rimfire style) that shoot at our range, but they/we shoot from a single bench per stage. I 'm thinking about setting up some "run-n-gun" stages for them next month...give them a taste of USPSA but using rimfire guns (multi-gun match).

Thanks!

Edited February 5, 2013 by Mark R