My G20 only likes Bullseye + One Last Try

[Warhammer4k]

Note: Threads merged - Admin.

In a nutshell, my Glock 20 will ONLY work with reloads made using Bullseye powder. Over the past few years, I've changed just about every stinking thing possible in an attempt to get it to run on my 10mm reloads, including at least:

-barrel. Started using a Lone Wolf Distributors replacement barrel both because it made me less nervous about shooting cast lead, and because it's easier on the brass than the stock chamber.

-bullets. You name it I've tried it: cast lead, 155 to 180 grains; plated, 180 to 220 grains; Montana Gold CMJ 180 grain.

-Powders. Accurate Arms #9, IMR 800X, Alliant Blue Dot, Alliant Bullseye.

-brass: New and previously-reloaded Starline. Once-fired Federal and Winchester.

-primers: Remington 2 1/2, Winchester Large Pistol, Federal #150 and #155.

-recoil spring: Both the original one (which is around 17 lb.) and a 22 lb. aftermarket one including a solid metal guide rod (from Wolff Gunsprings).

The only constant? Reloads made with Bullseye just work. Other powders don't.

Bullseye is perhaps not an ideal 10mm powder, but it's the only thing that will work in my Glock 20 so far. Go figure.

Anyone else have a gun, 10mm or otherwise, that is this finicky?

Edited January 17, 2013 by Flexmoney

[P.E. Kelley]

Have you had any luck with factory ammo?

With a 17# on the low end and 22# on the top methinks you might be over sprung and underpowered.

[twodownzero]

What do you mean that it's the only powder that "works"? Are you having accuracy issues or are you saying that the gun literally won't run with anything else?

Because if it won't run with the slower powders, I suspect that your scale is off and those loads are too weak to cycle your gun. Bullseye is much faster than any of the other powders you've used, and so I think it'd be less likely to not function at all even with a significant undercharge.

Do you have a chronograph? What kind of scale are you using? Are the results the same in both barrels? Do you have any other 10mm guns that you can test the ammo through?

[Warhammer4k]

Do you have a chronograph? What kind of scale are you using? Are the results the same in both barrels? Do you have any other 10mm guns that you can test the ammo through?

I wish the problem were so simple. But I've been using a two-scale setup for the past couple of years: a Hornady electronic scale for spot-checking powder throws, and a Redding mechanical scale to make sure the electronic scale is up to snuff. The mechanical scale gets verified with check weights at least once a year, and I re-zero it at the start of every reloading session. Basically, there's no way I'm throwing charges light enough to make a difference. If I were off by a grain or two, it would be obvious by now.

Same deal with the chronograph. I have no means to verify its readings of course, but I get about what the data says I should get. Blue Dot does perform notably better than Bullseye, giving me 1200 ft/s average with the same bullet that I can only safely push to about 1080 ft/s with Bullseye.

That's why this is such a big mystery.

By "doesn't work" of course I mean the gun simply won't run on non-Bullseye loads. I've had threads about it in the past so maybe I'll link to one of those rather than do a complete re-hash. Short 'n' sweet: the jams are always the same, with the cartridge jamming against the chamber roof when it should be feeding.

It's absolutely impossible for me to understand how jams like that can happen with BOTH recoil spring weights. If slide velocity is too high, the stronger spring should make things work. If slide velocity is too low with the extra-power spring, using the factory spring should make things work.

I haven't put much factory ammo through the gun, because commercial 10mm is just too dang expensive. I've shot maybe 200 rounds of factory ammo through the gun ever, without a single problem. Of course that was all using the stock Glock barrel. It's possible that what I really have is a problem with the Lone Wolf replacement barrel, though I can't see how. It doesn't have any burrs or irregularities that should cause a problem, and like I said, it feeds and fires Bullseye loads flawlessly.

It probably sounds like I'm making this all up, but it's just one of those weird things that happen sometimes in real life.

[DRAB81]

What velocities are you getting with the AA9, Blue Dot & 800X loads? What are your load specs? (charge weight, OAL, crimp etc).

ETA:

LWD barrel's are known to have ridiculously tight chambers & short throats. I had to send my LWD 6" 10mm barrel back due to FTF issues with my HOT reloads (it functioned fine with UMC 180gr). Now it functions 100% with everything I have loaded, but it didn't like Nosler JHP's @ 1.260" or 200gr WFNGC's anywhere past 1.250" before they opened up the chamber & took the edge off the top of the feedramp. It still has more than enough case support for those loads, but it looks like a pretty bad hack job with a dremel.

.

Edited July 10, 2012 by MEAT

[98sr20ve]

It's the barrel. Put the stock one back in and load some jacketed.

[Warhammer4k]

Could be what I really need is a different aftermarket barrel. Not using the factory one with my good Starline brass, because it wrecks the brass. Maybe I'll try the Glock barrel with my "mixed" brass, which I don't care as much about.

I called Lone Wolf about this problem years ago, and they offered to open up the chamber a bit. They wanted some dummy reloads to test the fit. The thing is, the reloads DO fit. I use a chamber checker (which is tighter than the LWD chamber) on each and every reload. Those that don't drop in easily, I don't even try to fire in the 20. So I had no idea what to send them.

I suppose a photo is in order here:

The reload in the photo was made with a plated bullet, but this is exactly the same type of malfunction I've been dealing with all along. It's not an issue with the reload being too large for the chamber - it doesn't even get that far.

(And no, I don't hold my thumb against the slide when shooting. That was just for the photo.)

Edited July 10, 2012 by Warhammer4k

[latech15]

If it likes bullseye and those loads are flawless as you say, why mess with it? Use bullseye.

[DRAB81]

What velocities are you getting with the AA9, Blue Dot & 800X loads? What are your load specs? (charge weight, OAL, crimp etc).

ETA:

LWD barrel's are known to have ridiculously tight chambers & short throats. I had to send my LWD 6" 10mm barrel back due to FTF issues with my HOT reloads (it functioned fine with UMC 180gr). Now it functions 100% with everything I have loaded, but it didn't like Nosler JHP's @ 1.260" or 200gr WFNGC's anywhere past 1.250" before they opened up the chamber & took the edge off the top of the feedramp. It still has more than enough case support for those loads, but it looks like a pretty bad hack job with a dremel.

Could be what I really need is a different aftermarket barrel. Not using the factory one with my good Starline brass, because it wrecks the brass. Maybe I'll try the Glock barrel with my "mixed" brass, which I don't care as much about.

I called Lone Wolf about this problem years ago, and they offered to open up the chamber a bit. They wanted some dummy reloads to test the fit. The thing is, the reloads DO fit. I use a chamber checker (which is tighter than the LWD chamber) on each and every reload. Those that don't drop in easily, I don't even try to fire in the 20. So I had no idea what to send them.

I suppose a photo is in order here:

The reload in the photo was made with a plated bullet, but this is exactly the same type of malfunction I've been dealing with all along. It's not an issue with the reload being too large for the chamber - it doesn't even get that far.

(And no, I don't hold my thumb against the slide when shooting. That was just for the photo.)

Again, it's probably the barrel. Your reloads might chamber check just fine, but that still doesn't mean they'll feed properly. The edge where the feedramp meets the chamber is EXTREMELY sharp on LWD's barrels (up until about a year ago anyway). Send LWD your barrel & dummy rounds that pass the chamber check.

I'd be pissed too if all I could get to work in my 10mm was Bullseye. Bullseye sucks in 10mm, but your AA9 & Blue Dot will work great once you get it running.

[Flexmoney]

When puzzled, take the non-standard parts out and put the stock parts back in.

[redial]

Magazines?

[Glockman1000]

I don't know if this will help but, I had issues with my G21 not cycling my regular .45 loads, I used Wolff springs & a guide rod that was made to the same dimensions as a Wolff guide rod in stainless steel. (6mm?) I replaced the guide rod with another one turned on the lathe to use with ISMI flat wound springs that was made out of a stainless steel bolt(1/4"). Now every load I have tried cycles my G21, I tried WW231 at 4.5, 4.8, & 5.3grns. under a 230gr. hand cast bullet along with old loads made with Clays, HP38. And some really old loads circa 1996, 200grn. SWC H&G style under 6.0grns. of old WW231. Fired some old Hydra-Shoks that were sitting in my ammo stash. No problems.

While I had the Wolff spring combo in the G21 I was having similar malfunctions like the one in your photo. The slide felt really sluggish & fired brass would just be sitting on top of the next round that should have chambered. The brass when ejected would just roll off the slide. I only mention this since we are talking large frame Glocks. I did this testing all this past Sunday at the range while chronoing. I fired mixed loads of various charge weights, around 150 just to make sure. For clarification, I don't have an aftermarket barrel, I just use the factory barrel, This gun is my HD gun since it is outfitted with night sights. I wanted to make sure this gun was working properly.

Since you mentioned a LW barrel, I remember reading on the LW site cautioning about using Wolff rods & springs, but I thought this applied to their aftermarket long slides only.

Hope this helps.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Glockman1000

[Warhammer4k]

OK, I give up!

Went out Sunday morning and shot some fresh reloads (11.0 gr. Blue Dot with the same Montana Gold 180 gr. CMJ bullets), using the original Glock barrel and factory recoil spring/guide rod. Every few rounds, I got a misfeed like this one:

After getting this with two different magazines, regardless of grip (one-handed, two-handed, dominant or nondominant side), I quit trying. I did not have my aftermarket recoil spring (extra-heavy 22 lb.) and guide rod with me.

Then I shot the same reloads in my S&W 1006. At least 100 rounds of the reloads went through that gun flawlessly.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Warhammer4k

[DRAB81]

OK, I give up!

Went out Sunday morning and shot some fresh reloads (11.0 gr. Blue Dot with the same Montana Gold 180 gr. CMJ bullets), using the original Glock barrel and factory recoil spring/guide rod. Every few rounds, I got a misfeed like this one:

After getting this with two different magazines, regardless of grip (one-handed, two-handed, dominant or nondominant side), I quit trying. I did not have my aftermarket recoil spring (extra-heavy 22 lb.) and guide rod with me.

Then I shot the same reloads in my S&W 1006. At least 100 rounds of the reloads went through that gun flawlessly.

That Blue Dot load is pretty stout, and right at Alliant's published max if I'm not mistaken (not that I don't use max/over max loads in 10mm). Have you tried anything in the mid range? There has to be a considerable difference in velocity/impulse between the BE & BD loads. I have loaded & shot the 180's everywhere between 850-1300fps in both of my G20SF's, and never had a single issue with the stock setup. Maybe you got a lemon. You should probably send it back to Glock before going through any more frustration. Only problem is, that the factory ammo Glock will probably use to test it will probably function just fine.

.

Edited July 31, 2012 by MEAT

[Big Bore]

The only problems I have had that gave me similar malfunctions when I tried to run Ramshot Silhoutte at lower charge weights and tried get my velocitys down to 900fps with a 200 grain bullet. I upped the charge and no more mafunctions.

[redial]

OK, if you've eliminated barrels, magazines, springs and chamber dimensions by switching them out, that leaves only ammo, IMO. Try shortening and lengthening your seating depth a handful of thou in each direction.

A few things I notice - Bullseye is by far the fastest powder you list and you shoot with gloves on. In my bullseye (NRA Bullseye, that is) pistols, I use faster powders in guns with heavier slides because they produce a recoil impulse that cycles the gun reliably with light loads. Slower powders give me malfs like the ones you show in your photos. Could it be that you're not offering enough resistance to recoil in the initial first moments of the gun's cycling? Try an experiment - assume a bullseye shooters one-handed stance with all the joints in your arm locked at full extension (absolutely straight) without a glove on. Does the gun cycle with "normal" 10mm ammo? Maybe it will.

If THAT doesn't work, take it to a priest. He'll either exorcise the demons living in it or perform Last Rites.

Good luck!

Mark

[Glockman1000]

Warhammer4K, I hope you find a solution. Maybe you should contact Glock about it & send it in. Maybe there's a Glock armorer nearby you can have verify & vouch for the problems you're having to get some kind of warranty work or replacement.

[Warhammer4k]

I have a bunch (as in few hundred rounds) of commercial 10mm ammo I got for my birthday, so I guess I'll put that through the gun to see what happens. Maybe it will have the same problem as with the reloads, if I shoot enough of the factory stuff. It's not like I was saving the factory loads for a special occasion. As I mentioned above, I've shot very, very little factory ammo through my Glock 20, because factory 10mm is just so expensive, and reloading was the whole point of owning the gun in the first place.

I previously owned a Glock 20 (non-SF) a few years ago. I gave up and sold it because I was having the EXACT same issues I've shown in this thread, using the factory barrel, factory recoil spring, and Rainier plated 180 gr. bullets. I never tried to send it in because what was I going to tell Glock? "My gun doesn't work with reloads"? I don't think they would be interested in helping with that.

Wish I could go back and edit this thread title, because even Bullseye loads don't work, not with the Montana Gold CMJ bullets I started using.

11.0 gr. Blue Dot is indeed the max with a 180 gr. FMJ bullet in 10mm. I did indeed try lesser loads in the process of working up to maximum, but since they were small test batches (10-20 rounds max.) they were not enough to test function. I suppose it's worth a go to try some less-violent loadings (e.g. 10.5 gr., 10.0 gr.) in greater quantities, just to see if it makes a difference.

[67ls7vert]

Seams to me the answer is clear! feed it Bullseye.

Chris

[Warhammer4k]

Seems to me you didn't read the thread. Bullseye loads don't work either. Nothing does, so far.

[leas327]

If I were you I would double check my crimp. By that I meant completely reset the die from scratch and crip more than normal. I would also shorten the OAL of my load .020 and try again with the light recoil spring and the start loads. Looks to me like you are 3 pointing from too long of ammo or a messed up crimp. I have had a few issues with a 3 point jam myself and those two things cured my woes.

Also, that pick in post 13 makes it look like your extractor isn't pivoting and allowing a round to slide up behind it. i would take that apart and clean it and make sure it is moving freely.

Edited August 3, 2012 by leas327

[FightFireJay]

If I were you I would double check my crimp. By that I meant completely reset the die from scratch and crip more than normal. I would also shorten the OAL of my load .020 and try again with the light recoil spring and the start loads. Looks to me like you are 3 pointing from too long of ammo or a messed up crimp. I have had a few issues with a 3 point jam myself and those two things cured my woes.

Also, that pick in post 13 makes it look like your extractor isn't pivoting and allowing a round to slide up behind it. i would take that apart and clean it and make sure it is moving freely.

I think this is "on the money"!! This is a feeding problem, not a powder problem. So the things that affect feeding are...

-recoil spring (you tried stock and heavier, but not lighter... might be worth trying, a lighter spring would SLOW down the slide as it goes forward to pick up the next round.)

-Magazines, but you have several of those.

-Extractor (If the brass isn't able to slip under it, as in your picture) you'll never get it to load well, I'd give that puppy some cleaning attention and check for burrs.)

-COL (I recently had a Taurus .380 that had the SAME feeding issues, I made the cartridges longer and clean the hell out of the breech face and it feeds like a champ now. You may need to go longer or shorter.)

Hope it works out, keep us in the loop!

[Warhammer4k]

I now have some additional information. Last weekend I fired 105 rounds (7 full magazines) of Federal factory JHP 10mm from the Glock 20, using the original barrel and stock recoil spring. It worked every single time. Combining this with several magazines each of Winchester Silvertips and other Federal 10mm JHPs I have fired in the past, I'd say the gun does run on factory 10mm ammo.

As for the reloads, shortening COAL isn't an option. I'm already loading at 1.251"-1.255", with the minimum being 1.250".

I tried longer/shorter OAL and more/less crimp years ago, with the previous Glock 20...none of which helped. So I'm not real keen on spending a lot of time trying the same stuff over again, that didn't help before. Present amount of crimp is basically juust enough to un-bell the case, just like factory ammo.

The only thing I haven't tried is, operating significantly below max, say 10 grains of Blue Dot.

Meanwhile, the exact same reloads work flawlessly in my S&W 10-series pistols...so maybe I'll just shoot those more, and relegate the Glock 20 to paperweight/safe decoration status.

[Scott L]

Maybe I missed it, but did you try your reloads the same day you shot all of the factory ammo with the stock barrel? Did you have problems this time? I've never had these issues with the 2 different G20s I've owned and reloaded for, factory or other barrel. I'm suspicious of you reloads and the LWD barrel.

[Warhammer4k]

Maybe I missed it, but did you try your reloads the same day you shot all of the factory ammo with the stock barrel? Did you have problems this time? I've never had these issues with the 2 different G20s I've owned and reloaded for, factory or other barrel. I'm suspicious of you reloads and the LWD barrel.

Yes, I brought the same reloads from the earlier trip (there were still around 100 left) and loaded them in the same magazines that had just flawlessly fed 105 rounds of factory ammo.

I'm not using the LWD barrel any more, until I can make things work with the factory barrel (actually that's an "If!").