Warhammer4k

Same-old-same-old, but...I kept careful track of which mags were in when I had malfunctions. I took the ones that fed all 15 rounds successfully and loaded them and fired them again. Six out of ten magazines got through two full loads (30 rounds each) without any misfeeds. When the gun started jamming, I removed that magazine and transferred its cartridges to a different magazine, since there isn't any point in continuing to shoot with a magazine that I know doesn't work. It was a lot of shooting, around 180 shots. I'll have to run a third, maybe a fourth and fifth, complete cycle with each magazine before I'm satisfied they really work. I purchased all ten magazines at the same time, brand new, and I have been having misfeeds with reloads from day one. So whatever the problem is, it was there at the start. So far I've been unable to identify any visible differences whatsoever between the "good" and "bad" magazines. The next step is to clean all magazines, and carefully compare "good" with "bad" mags.

If the Lone Wolf barrel needs polishing, so does my Glock barrel, because I have exactly the same malfunctions with the latter. It certainly isn't an issue of insufficient power. Most recently I've been loading the 180 gr. Montana Gold CMJ bullets over 11.0 grains Blue Dot and a Federal #150 primer, seated approx. 1.255" COAL, for an average velocity of 1200 ft/s. This is as hot as I can safely get - it is a maximum load. Yet the gun won't work. I have ten mags for the Glock 20 and I'm pretty sure the malfunctions happen with every single one of them. I'm going to test that hypothesis today at the range - I bet I'll have at least one misfeed with every magazine. I'll post results later.

This is a Montana Gold 180 gr. CMJ bullet, and it's what I've been using for the last thousand or so 10mm reloads. I get malfunctions just as shown above. I'm planning to go shoot some of them tomorrow & take photos of the malfunctions. (The previous photo of a malfunction stars a reload using a 220 gr. plated bullet over 10.0 gr. Blue Dot, but the bullet profile, and principle, are the same as with the Montana Gold.) A gunsmith who apparently has a lot of experience customizing Glock 20's got in touch with me via another forum and is trying to help me. I'm hopeful that something will come out of it. I'd even be willing to eat the cost of overnight shipping, to have him work on the gun. That's how badly I want to be able to shoot reloads in my Glock 20. It's really my only option for a double-stack 10mm.

Note: Threads merged here. - Admin. I've had a very unsatisfying history with the Glock 20 and attempts to reload for it. In summary: -I've owned two different Glock 20's, one a regular (purchased ca. 2007), one the SF variant (purchased 2010). -The only thing they've had in common is the same Lone Wolf Distributors replacement barrel. It is the same length as the factory barrel. I bought it so I could shoot cast lead without any question of safety, and because the chamber supports the 10mm case better, so that brass doesn't get worked so hard in each reloading cycle. -Despite every combination of powder (AA #9, AA#7, Bullseye, Blue Dot, IMR 800X, probably one other I'm forgetting), bullets (cast lead, plated, jacketed, weights from 165 to 220 gr.), brass (Starline, Federal, and Winchester), springs (both original and a 22 lb. recoil spring), primers (Winchester, CCI, Federal #150 and #155), COAL (anywhere from 1.240" to 1.270"), you name it, the gun just WILL NOT WORK with reloads. The only thing all these failures seem to have in common is the Lone Wolf replacement barrel. It's true that the gun also does not work using reloads with the factory barrel, but I generally avoid using the factory barrel because it Glocks the brass (i.e. bulged case heads). I have always reloaded 10mm ammo rather than buy it. I bought the first Glock 20 with the idea of shooting primarily reloads. I sold that gun after several frustrating months of trying to get it to use reloads. I assumed it must simply be defective. With the second Glock 20 (SF model), I was given about 400 rounds of Federal 10mm JHPs, and I have run enough through it (300+ rounds) to convince myself that the gun runs perfectly with factory ammuniton. Would a new replacement barrel, perhaps a KKM or Storm Lake, have any chance of fixing this problem? The malfunctions are always failures to feed which look something like this: Because the Lone Wolf barrel does have a tighter chamber than the Glock barrel, in addition to having more case support, I carefully case gage every reload I make. Those that fit easily in the case gage drop loosely into the Lone Wolf chamber, as one would expect. But as you can see in the photo, these cartridges don't even make it far enough into the chamber for any bulging to come into play. Somehow they are sliding up the feed ramp and getting stuck against the chamber roof. I'm quite literally at the last option. I've tried everything else I can possibly imagine to get a Glock 20 running with reloads. I even bought an EAA Witness at one point because I was so frustrated with the Glock 20 not working (and boy was that a mistake!). There simply is not another double-stack 10mm pistol in existence, so it's this or nothing. The reloads that continually fail to work in the Glock 20 will feed and fire all day long in my S&W 1006 and 1066, which is why I think I'm having a gun or barrel problem, and not a reload problem.

I'd like to know it if you ever figure that out. I had exactly the same experience using Unique in a Hornady powder dispenser on my Lock-n-Load AP press. Unique simply would not meter consistently. As I recall, drops would vary by as much as 0.6 gr. So I could not even approach a maximum load in any cartridge, as some of the drops were guaranteed to be over. I called Hornady about this and they stated that it was a known problem with Unique in their powder measure. In their word, Unique "clumps and bridges," which is why I would get huge throw-to-throw variations. Oopsie. Wish I'd checked with them before I bought an 8 lb. jug of Unique! Happily, I was able to sell the remaining powder to a fellow just getting into reloading. Unique is fine and dandy if you load single-stage, especially if you're OCD enough to weigh every charge, or have an automated powder dispenser like the RCBS Chargemaster 1500. I regularly start powder discussions with the stipulation that Unique is *not* an option, since it doesn't meter consistently in my equipment. But that doesn't stop people from recommending it anyway. I wish you all the best finding some way to get use out of your several pounds of Unique, other than using it as fertilizer.

I'm pleased to report a happy ending to this story. I received a package from S&W last Friday, which contained five each of new magazine springs and followers. I swapped them with the old springs & followers in five of my known "problem" magazines, and it fixed the problem right away. I made sure, by shooting the gun using those magazines the next day. It reliably locked open on an empty magazine, once again. S&W is pretty awesome. Now I just need to order five more springs & followers, so I can do preventive maintenance on the remaining magazines. FWIW, I ended up buying Speer Gold Dot LE .40 S&W (product 53962) as my new carry ammo.

This story doesn't have a happy ending just yet. Something about the new-style slide stop keeps the gun from locking open on an empty magazine with 7 out of my 10 magazines. I first noticed this at the range last weekend, shooting reloads and CCI Blazer. Wasn't quite sure what was going on at the time, but knew something wasn't right. At home, I tested all of my magazines empty, with the gun also empty, and found that only 3 of them will reliably activate the slide stop. Most of them never activate it; one does so occasionally. With the slide removed from the gun, all magazines push the slide stop up far enough that you'd think they would also do it with the gun in one piece. Not so. So I don't know what's going on here. Have I managed to wear out 7 of 10 magazine springs? All the magazines are of a similar age, having been purchased within a year or so of when I originally bought the gun. Doubting the "worn mag springs" idea since this never happened with the old slide stop. Going to call S&W about this Monday. Until then, any ideas?

Good news, everyone! I got my M&P back on Wednesday. Took it to the range this AM. It's once again working perfectly. Unfortunately, I used all remaining 105 rounds of the Hornady TAP to verify function, so I'll have to order some more. I also shot a box of Blazer and some handloads just to be sure. S&W put in some new parts, including a new-style slide stop. It's much better than the old one. Anyway, the gun works again.

Got it shipped on Wednesday so S&W should get it today. I don't know how fast their turnaround is, but I assume it will get overnighted on the way back, so I might be back in business by next weekend. I hope this gets resolved. I was planning to use the M&P in an Ayoob live fire course in October. There wouldn't be much point in using a gun for the class that I can't carry because it won't work with defense ammo.

There are several aspects of this problem that defy explanation, but one in particular is how some of the misfeeds get off-center (see photo on pg. 1). I don't understand how that's physically possible. Cartridges are going to be aligned with the bore axis as they come out of the magazine. How in the world is anything pushing them to one side, as in the photo?

I didn't try smacking the slide, but hitting the magazine from the bottom does make the stuck round chamber. So it's not as if there were something preventing free movement of the slide and recoil assembly. The cartridge just kind of..gets stuck, for no apparent reason. I'm sure S&W will try brand-new magazines as part of repair service. Mine sure look fine, and I have 10 of them, so it's not as if I'm constantly using the same 1-2 mags. I don't know when I'll get to send it in exactly. I made the warranty request yesterday, but still haven't received the prepaid shipping label email. I expect a human being at S&W needs to review & approve the claim, so it will likely take a few days.

ABQ, NM. I'm not going to sell my 20 this time. As far as I can tell, my Glock 20 is 100% reliable with factory ammo, so it at least has some use for self-defense and possibly as a hunting sidearm (I did in fact employ it as such when going after feral hogs this spring). It won't cost me anything to keep it, so keep it I shall. Meanwhile, for all my 10mm shooting needs, I have a couple of S&W 10-series autoloaders, and a 610 revolver. It's disappointing that the world's only double-stack, full-size 10mm handgun* won't work for me. *The 10mm EAA/Tangfolio Witness doesn't count. I owned one for less than a month - its slide cracked after less than 400 rounds.

Down-loaded reloads (10.0 gr. Blue Dot) didn't work either. Got exactly the same type of feed failure as shown above, on the 6th round in a magazine. The brass is all Starline, previously reloaded, ery carefully screened for any irregularities in the brass (which isn't hard to do, since I hand-inspect every reload. I don't just toss them in a can right off the press.). I give up. A gun which can only shoot factory ammo is useless to me.

All of the TAP is from the same lot, so go figure why it worked before but won't now. To clarify, the problem ammo is the plain brass-cased TAP CQ that comes in a red box, product number 91365. All of it is from the same lot number (3090622). I started with a couple hundred rounds of it, and am now down to about 100 (5 boxes). I suppose it's time to consider a completely different ammo choice, such as Gold Dots. Anyway, I shot some more of the TAP again earlier, starting with a spic-n-span gun and two magazines I had also cleaned. I had 3 failures, and thought to take a picture of one of them: That's what the failures last week looked like, too. I measured a few cartridges - all were right around 1.123" COAL, which should be OK. My reloads tend to be longer, and they work fine. I think a call to S&W is in order. Maybe Hornady too. update: S&W's response: "That's weird. Send it in." They provide a prepaid shipping label, so that's really easy to do.

What's really disturbing about this is that Hornady TAP was my carry ammo. I tested several magazines' worth a couple of years ago, then shot a couple of magazines every 6 months or so just to make sure I could still hit stuff with it, firing a lot of reloads in the meantime. TAP always worked. Reloads made with Hornady XTP bullets (the same ones in TAP) likewise worked. If there's a problem with the XTP bullet and the M&P feed ramp, it's a new one. Going to give it another try tomorrow afternoon, starting with a squeaky-clean gun. The M&P was dirty before the range trip where TAP failed, but not THAT dirty. It shouldn't have had feed problems just from being a little grimy. If I have malfunctions again, this time I'll take pictures.

Nope. I first noticed feeding problems with the LWD barrel because I was using it to shoot reloads (because it's easier on the brass). I switched back to the factory barrel, and have had exactly the same malfunctions. Switching recoil springs (factory vs. 22 lb. aftermarket) also makes absolutely no difference.

Separate steps. I've never liked the "seat and crimp in one step" setup. Using a Hornady Lock-n-Load AP FWIW.

Yes, I brought the same reloads from the earlier trip (there were still around 100 left) and loaded them in the same magazines that had just flawlessly fed 105 rounds of factory ammo.I'm not using the LWD barrel any more, until I can make things work with the factory barrel (actually that's an "If!").

My S&W M&P in .40 S&W has been utterly reliable for years, so I'm very surprised that it malfunctioned when I was shooting some carry loads (Hornady TAP .40 S&W 180 gr. JHP) at the range last weekend. The malf's were feed failures. I got 3 or 4 failures in shooting 2 magazines of the Hornady TAP ammo. No pictures, but they were the type of failure where the next cartridge sort-of starts to feed, but then jams up against the chamber roof, or partway into the chamber. Magazines were firmly seated when these failures happened, and I was shooting exactly the same way I've shot thousands of rounds through the pistol without the first problem. So I'm baffled. I inspected all of the fired brass. None of it was abnormal in any way. I'm sure I would have noticed if any of the rounds had been oversized out of the box, to the point that they wouldn't fit in the chamber. I doubt they would have fit in the magazine if that were the case. I went on to shoot several magazines' worth of reloads (180 gr. FMJ bullet on 5.0 grains Bullseye) without a single failure. This is more of the same thing I've seen with thousands and thousands of rounds of my reloads in the M&P: they just work. It's almost as if my M&P is perfectly reliable with reloads, but won't work with "quality" factory ammo! I don't know where to even start diagnosing this problem. Any ideas?

I now have some additional information. Last weekend I fired 105 rounds (7 full magazines) of Federal factory JHP 10mm from the Glock 20, using the original barrel and stock recoil spring. It worked every single time. Combining this with several magazines each of Winchester Silvertips and other Federal 10mm JHPs I have fired in the past, I'd say the gun does run on factory 10mm ammo. As for the reloads, shortening COAL isn't an option. I'm already loading at 1.251"-1.255", with the minimum being 1.250". I tried longer/shorter OAL and more/less crimp years ago, with the previous Glock 20...none of which helped. So I'm not real keen on spending a lot of time trying the same stuff over again, that didn't help before. Present amount of crimp is basically juust enough to un-bell the case, just like factory ammo. The only thing I haven't tried is, operating significantly below max, say 10 grains of Blue Dot. Meanwhile, the exact same reloads work flawlessly in my S&W 10-series pistols...so maybe I'll just shoot those more, and relegate the Glock 20 to paperweight/safe decoration status.

Seems to me you didn't read the thread. Bullseye loads don't work either. Nothing does, so far.

I have a bunch (as in few hundred rounds) of commercial 10mm ammo I got for my birthday, so I guess I'll put that through the gun to see what happens. Maybe it will have the same problem as with the reloads, if I shoot enough of the factory stuff. It's not like I was saving the factory loads for a special occasion. As I mentioned above, I've shot very, very little factory ammo through my Glock 20, because factory 10mm is just so expensive, and reloading was the whole point of owning the gun in the first place. I previously owned a Glock 20 (non-SF) a few years ago. I gave up and sold it because I was having the EXACT same issues I've shown in this thread, using the factory barrel, factory recoil spring, and Rainier plated 180 gr. bullets. I never tried to send it in because what was I going to tell Glock? "My gun doesn't work with reloads"? I don't think they would be interested in helping with that. Wish I could go back and edit this thread title, because even Bullseye loads don't work, not with the Montana Gold CMJ bullets I started using. 11.0 gr. Blue Dot is indeed the max with a 180 gr. FMJ bullet in 10mm. I did indeed try lesser loads in the process of working up to maximum, but since they were small test batches (10-20 rounds max.) they were not enough to test function. I suppose it's worth a go to try some less-violent loadings (e.g. 10.5 gr., 10.0 gr.) in greater quantities, just to see if it makes a difference.

OK, I give up! Went out Sunday morning and shot some fresh reloads (11.0 gr. Blue Dot with the same Montana Gold 180 gr. CMJ bullets), using the original Glock barrel and factory recoil spring/guide rod. Every few rounds, I got a misfeed like this one: After getting this with two different magazines, regardless of grip (one-handed, two-handed, dominant or nondominant side), I quit trying. I did not have my aftermarket recoil spring (extra-heavy 22 lb.) and guide rod with me. Then I shot the same reloads in my S&W 1006. At least 100 rounds of the reloads went through that gun flawlessly.

Could be what I really need is a different aftermarket barrel. Not using the factory one with my good Starline brass, because it wrecks the brass. Maybe I'll try the Glock barrel with my "mixed" brass, which I don't care as much about. I called Lone Wolf about this problem years ago, and they offered to open up the chamber a bit. They wanted some dummy reloads to test the fit. The thing is, the reloads DO fit. I use a chamber checker (which is tighter than the LWD chamber) on each and every reload. Those that don't drop in easily, I don't even try to fire in the 20. So I had no idea what to send them. I suppose a photo is in order here: The reload in the photo was made with a plated bullet, but this is exactly the same type of malfunction I've been dealing with all along. It's not an issue with the reload being too large for the chamber - it doesn't even get that far. (And no, I don't hold my thumb against the slide when shooting. That was just for the photo.)

Complete metal jacket (CMJ) bullets, such as those sold by Montana Gold, also have no exposed lead, but are cheaper than JHPs. I'm nowhere near a good enough shot to tell the supposed difference in accuracy at 25 yards or less, so I shoot Montana Gold CMJs. I bought the CMJ version because it was only a fraction of a cent more per bullet, so I figured it couldn't hurt to have less vaporized lead floating around. The tiny amount of lead from the base of an ordinary FMJ bullet isn't going to lead up your barrel anytime soon, but why have it in the air, and on your hands & clothing, if you don't have to? I'd love to be proven wrong, but for me the "accuracy" justification for JHPs just doesn't make sense, for a variety of reasons.