Poppa Bear Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 The situation is as such: Wall is parallel to the backstop with 2x2 fault lines extended rearward at the corners. Targets are placed behind it such that the shooter has to lean around the wall to engage them. Because the wall is considered a fault line it is legal to touch the wall as you engage the targets. During the initial walk through it is decided that the middle targets are too easy to engage, so the decision is made to move the fault lines in from the edge of the wall. Because the edge of the wall is now outside of the fault line does this mean that touching the wall as you shoot around it is illegal? Or would it still be legal being as it forms the front limit of the shooting area? Now change it up and place a set of fault lines behind the wall so that the entire wall is outside of the shooting area. Now touching the wall is illegal. But again a decision is made that the middle target is too easy to engage so the side lines are moved in without shortening the front lines. Can you now stand on that portion of the front fault line that is past the side fault line and legally engage the targets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Geez if it were me I would staple a few no shoots on the edge of the wall or stack two barrels on the right edge of the wall OR move the middle targets in a little to steepen the angle. Leave the fault lines as they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted January 10, 2013 Author Share Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) This came to me today as I was working and I got to thinking how does it work if a portion of a fault line extends past the edge of a wall or if two fault lines that are perpendicular to one another have one end extending past the outer edge of the other? Is the limit the edge of the one line or the length of the other? What happens if the edge of the wall extends past the outer edge of the fault lines? This would be easy to do by placing the fault line inside the post holding the wall. 2.2.1.2 Shooting Boxes and Fault Lines are used to define the limits of the shooting area(s). (See Rule 10.2.1) Edited January 10, 2013 by Poppa Bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) If it's attached to the the fault lines, eg. a wall or another fault line, etc. then it is considered part of the shooting area. Edited January 10, 2013 by Chris Keen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted January 10, 2013 Author Share Posted January 10, 2013 Which is what I interpret it as also. This actually becomes more of a stage design/construction issue. While the intent might be to restrict the ability to engage the target, leaving any portion of the wall or fault line outside the intended shooting area leaves it available to be used by the shooters without penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 This came to me today as I was working and I got to thinking how does it work if a portion of a fault line extends past the edge of a wall or if two fault lines that are perpendicular to one another have one end extending past the outer edge of the other? Is the limit the edge of the one line or the length of the other?... ...While the intent might be to restrict the ability to engage the target, leaving any portion of the wall or fault line outside the intended shooting area leaves it available to be used by the shooters without penalty. We sometimes have fault line intersections where one extends past the other. Our fault lines are 2x4s ripped in half lengthwise and most are 8' long. Since not all shooting areas end up being some multiple of 8 feet we sometimes end up with part of the fault line extending past the other. I have always interpreted it to be that anything beyond the intersection of fault lines (including the fault lines themselves) are out of bounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt P. Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Geez if it were me I would staple a few no shoots on the edge of the wall or stack two barrels on the right edge of the wall OR move the middle targets in a little to steepen the angle. Leave the fault lines as they are. I agree. Too much time and energy wasted on the fault lines when the targets could have or should been moved or left alone. Just because a couple of targets are easy to shoot does not mean it is a bad stage. The thing you should be looking for in a final design is CONSISTENCY ! Will all the squads and RO's operate the stage the same way making it a fair comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 My understanding is if you have two perpendicular fault lines, one extending past the other, the part sticking past the other is legal to be stepped on even outside the intersection of the two fault lines...as long as you don't touch the ground. If you are on, you are in, if you are not in, you are out. Gosh, I hope I'm wrong, but that's what I've been told and have been using as a rule. Another example is a 4"x4"x8' ft piece of wood, connected perpendicularly at ends to 2 each 4"x4"x2' legs to make a secure plank to walk on. The 8 ft 4x4 was the shooting area, but the legs were "attached" to the plank and they also were legal to step on to shoot...according to a NROI answer I received a few years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgj3 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) Still doesnt directly address the issue with the wall. Ive seen this come up a few times. When the wall is at the front-most end of a COF and shooters have to shoot around it, can the shooter use the wall for support? Only use the sides since the top and bottom are assumed to extend to infinity? Edited January 10, 2013 by wgj3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt P. Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 First of all, walls do NOT go to inifinty unless specified on the WSB. They are from the ground to the constructed height. If the wall is "Wholly outside of the fault line" you can not use it for support . You will incur penalties for that. Without a drawing or a picture and a formal question, it is more difficult to help you without more specifics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgj3 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Was asking more generally, and that answered my question quite nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt P. Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Good, I was too lazy to lookup the rule numbers for you BUT, if you download the rulebook from USPSA, you can use CTRL F and search for whatever you want to. Knowing the rules inside and out WILL make you a better competitor . That is part of the homework I talk about when teaching the young up and comers. Know what you can and can't do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 This sounds like a situation that arose at an A6 match a few years ago where I was the RO. The fault lines stopped just short of the wall/port area, there were some targets at a very hard right and left angle in the port. Some of the shorter shooters were leaning over and resting in the port to shoot the targets. Since it is wholly outside of the fault lines, that's a procedural. However, if the wall was up against the fault line area, then the wall can be used for support. Sarge had the best idea, just use no-shoots, barrels, obstacles to complete your intent of the stage instead of relying on what might or might not be legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Rule 10.2.1 deals with this mostly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 ... you can use CTRL F and search for whatever you want to. Only on Windows... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgj3 Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Thank you. Im certainly still learning quite a bit. This just taught me an easier way to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt P. Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 ok, constructed wall = 2.2.3.3 Outside a fault line. 10.2.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 So referring to the attached...if you touch wall on left, you get a procedural, but ok to touch wall on right since it's connected to the wall. Correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt P. Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 From that picture, it looks like the left hand side, the wall stands are touching the fault lines which means you CAN touch. If the fault lines were not touching the fault lines, then NO you can not. On the right side, you CAN touch because the wall is the fault line because it goes from the ground to constructed height. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) Matt...I think you meant to say "...if the fault lines were not touching the wall stands, then no you cannot." Correct? The pic on the left was meant to be a small space between the wall and the fault lines...got it too close together. Edited January 10, 2013 by Mark R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Mark is correct, as long as it is outside completely and not touching, excerpt from 10.2.1: "...contact with an object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or Fault Line..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Based on what I see, the 2 examples are the same. You would need separation between the base of the wall and the fault lines in order to give a proceduarl for a shooter making contact with the wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt P. Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Matt...I think you meant to say "...if the fault lines were not touching the wall stands, then no you cannot." Correct? The pic on the left was meant to be a small space between the wall and the fault lines...got it too close together. Actually no, in the picture, the stands that are holding up the walls on the left side are touching the fault lines which then makes it one piece and you CAN touch the wall. If the fault lines were not touching the stands, then you can not. The key words here are "Wholly outside" any part touching the fault lines fails the "Wholly Outside" test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt P. Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Mark, If you are setting this up, just make sure the fault lines are way away from the stands and there are no issues. As a courtesy to other shooters, you should inform them of the rule number so they all can learn as they shoot (provided it's a level I match) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) ok...lets try this again... Left wall, you touch you get a procedural...right wall ok to touch. Don't ask me where the wall stands are. Edited January 10, 2013 by Mark R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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