Matt P. Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Beautiful. Left side Touch Wall = Penalty Right Side Touch Wall = No Penalty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I think we got a little drift on the attachement of walls to fault lines... Ini the original post, the question was asked in his final paragraph if he could stand on the fault line if it was extended past the intersection of the fault lines as in this picture...the left and right fault lines were moved in to restrict view behind wall, but the MD didn't cut the front and rear fault lines...or use smaller ones. Can you legally step on extended portions of the fault lines and still be legal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt P. Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 ok, so this is what I think, I can not find a rule number that either allows or disallows you to. I cant find a rule on intersect. For me, when I can't find a specific rule for a circumstance, I default back to common sense and the flavor of the intent. If someone can find a rule to apply, I would love to learn it. Now, with that said, I assume this is a Level I match, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) Post #4 says if attached so I would assume you can. But I can find it in the rule set either. My previous example is another like it...4x4 legs supporting 4x4 8ft plank...NROI rules that the 4x4 legs were legal to step on since they were attached to the shooting plank...see attachment. (note the plank legs do not touch the yellow shooting boxes (looks like they do in the pic). P30_WalkThePlanksMate.pdf Edited January 10, 2013 by Mark R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt P. Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) Argh! Good point Matey! Seriously, I can see the point. That is actually difficult to say because you also put in the written stage briefing that the plank is part of the shooting area. The other fault line example does not indicate that at all. You never answered, was that for a level I Match? Edited January 10, 2013 by Matt P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 The plank stage was used at one of my local level I match and was also approved for a club in Area 1 (I think) level II or III match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt P. Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 ok, I was going to say that if the fault line issue was for a level II or III, get a saw and prevent the headaches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I think we got a little drift on the attachement of walls to fault lines... Ini the original post, the question was asked in his final paragraph if he could stand on the fault line if it was extended past the intersection of the fault lines as in this picture...the left and right fault lines were moved in to restrict view behind wall, but the MD didn't cut the front and rear fault lines...or use smaller ones. Can you legally step on extended portions of the fault lines and still be legal? When you say step on them, you are saying both feet out of the box and both feet on the extension or extra length? Before you answer that, you can specify in the WSB that the extensions as being there only due to construction purposes and are not part of the shooting box/fault lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Agreed. The real question per the OP and per pic in #27...can you step on the extended fault lines without penalty considering you don't touch the ground? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 I think we got a little drift on the attachement of walls to fault lines... Ini the original post, the question was asked in his final paragraph if he could stand on the fault line if it was extended past the intersection of the fault lines as in this picture...the left and right fault lines were moved in to restrict view behind wall, but the MD didn't cut the front and rear fault lines...or use smaller ones. Can you legally step on extended portions of the fault lines and still be legal? When you say step on them, you are saying both feet out of the box and both feet on the extension or extra length? Before you answer that, you can specify in the WSB that the extensions as being there only due to construction purposes and are not part of the shooting box/fault lines. I'm just the pic designer...the original OP had the question. If you use the WSB, can you restrict the extensions? Or are we freestyle and if its there, use it if legal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt P. Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Unless written in the WSB, I can find a rule that supports it and I cant find a rule that specifically penalizes it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 It is a fault line. Fault lines are part of the shooting area. As long as you aren't touching the ground, you aren't faulting. I can't see where any Level 1 exemptions would apply here, but I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 IMO, this is just another big hole for competitors to drive a truck through. If you don't like the smell of diesel, shorten the fault lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt P. Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 It is a fault line. Fault lines are part of the shooting area. As long as you aren't touching the ground, you aren't faulting. I can't see where any Level 1 exemptions would apply here, but I could be wrong. Not looking for a Level I Exemption, just trying to understand the "Scope" of the question. If it were a level one (league type match) then it would be easy to tell all the shooters what it is. Reason being is that there are certain shortcuts in a league style match. If it were level II or III, then it is a by the book match. Just saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Even if it's a fault line, you can still specify actions not to take in the WSB (such as a Forbidden Action). Usually the MD, who is a lot of the times the RM, says you can't do it, I bet you won't unless you want the penalties. There has to be a little common sense with some of this stuff since at local matches, you can't always have the correct length of boards and so forth so you have to make due. This is a volunteer sport and we all can't go out all the time just for every small thing just to appease a few people who won't listen. No rant here but I'm just saying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) Match level shouldn't matter...if you shoot a match and it's laid out like that, can you step on the extension past the intersection of fault lines and fire a shot without penalty...and I think the answer is yes since the extension is part of the fault line as laid out. Please...someone correct me if I'm wrong. I would like to know the correct answer too. But as gng4life says...put it in the WSB...will this cover the arse sufficiently? Edited January 10, 2013 by Mark R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt P. Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 That's what I was saying. If it was a level I match, then a simple statement to the shooters should be enough. Level II and III should be by the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt P. Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Match level shouldn't matter...if you shoot a match and it's laid out like that, can you step on the extension past the intersection of fault lines and fire a shot without penalty...and I think the answer is yes since the extension is part of the fault line as laid out. Please...someone correct me if I'm wrong. I would like to know the correct answer too. My official response is "I don't know". My feeling is "No" because there is not a rearward extending fault line at the end of your "Plank" The rear fault line has to be minimum 3 feet. So if that were the course build, and I was the CRO on that stage, I would call penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 That's what I was saying. If it was a level I match, then a simple statement to the shooters should be enough. Level II and III should be by the book. Why shouldn't Level 1 be by the book? I would like to hear from some of the more experienced guys on this. is this an appropriate / legal use of a FA? I think you have to invoke the FA rule, and can't just put in the WSB "don't do that." (But like I said earlier, I may be wrong on this.) I completely get clubs not having a ton of supplies. I've setup stages at clubs that had very little resources. But I never felt like I couldn't trim the end off of a target stick or a fault line. I keep a little hand saw in my stage builders kit for just such an emergency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt P. Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 For us, at league club level matches, we would not saw that off because we don't want to cut up a fault line. we all have a basic human agreement, don't sweat the petty stuff. Without the very few who donate their time and resources, there wouldn't be a match in the first place. I dont see anything wrong in a local match like that to construct something and simply tell people (via oral, WSB or FA) not to walk the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben b. Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 Beautiful. Left side Touch Wall = Penalty Right Side Touch Wall = No Penalty As a minor point, the touch = penalty only counts if the touch happened while a shot was fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Fault lines are required to be built of materials that allow the competitor who steps on them a tactile sense of where they are, in or out, because the line is raised and distinct from the range surface outside it. Base on that, locally, we allow stepping on the line outside the enclosed area, or cut off the XS so shooters know when they have a foot down outside the shooting area. As far as walls touching fault lines, yes, contact can be made while firing. This includes parts outside the shooting area but attached to it. I found this out the hard way when I built a sectional match stage that I though required a hard, unsupported lean around a barricade, but smart shooters ended up getting a better shot by bracing against a vision barrier that was touching part of the shooting area, and therefore legal to touch. I have gone so far as to specify in the stage description that it is OK to use the top, face and sides, but not the support members behind a wall that is bordering a shooting area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted January 11, 2013 Author Share Posted January 11, 2013 We actually have a number of fault lines that extend past the shooting limits during course set up, but usually it is a case of the stick extending under a wall or walls. You cannot go past the wall so there is no problem with people trying to stand on the line. We have also frequently set up vision barrier walls where the fault line is placed a couple of inches inside the edge just to keep the shooter off balance. We do not have a problem with people bracing their gun or arms on the wall to make the shot. What got me thinking about the extension of the front fault line is that we do not penalize them if they touch the wall while shooting around it so we could not penalize them if we left a fault line hanging over the edge of the intended shooting area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 So referring to the attached...if you touch wall on left, you get a procedural, but ok to touch wall on right since it's connected to the wall. Correct? No procedurals in either case, since both walls are touching the line with their feet...... If however the distance between box and wall was increased to actually separate them, then yes..... Were I to design such a stage, and want to deprive competitors from touching the wall, I'd ensure enough separation to make it impossible..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 ok...lets try this again... Left wall, you touch you get a procedural...right wall ok to touch. Don't ask me where the wall stands are. Yep. I'm typically fairly nice to competitors, so I'd move the wall further away from the box, to remove temptation.... No requirement for that though.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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