What are the limits of a fault line?

[Poppa Bear]

Match level shouldn't matter...if you shoot a match and it's laid out like that, can you step on the extension past the intersection of fault lines and fire a shot without penalty...and I think the answer is yes since the extension is part of the fault line as laid out. Please...someone correct me if I'm wrong. I would like to know the correct answer too.

But as gng4life says...put it in the WSB...will this cover the arse sufficiently?

My take would be if the support as shown in the diagram is of the same dimension as a fault line then it would be legal to step on it without penalty. Now if you were to dig it down a bit so that it stayed stable but was now at ground level or just a fraction over so that the shooters foot touched the ground while trying to stand on it then it would be penalized. To me it comes down to if the foot will touch the ground or not.

I do not think you could get by with dictating the line as off limits in the WSB. If it is a legal line on the ground then you cannot say otherwise in the WSB. You either need to let it be used or you need to cut it off so that it cannot be used.

[Nik Habicht]

Match level shouldn't matter...if you shoot a match and it's laid out like that, can you step on the extension past the intersection of fault lines and fire a shot without penalty...and I think the answer is yes since the extension is part of the fault line as laid out. Please...someone correct me if I'm wrong. I would like to know the correct answer too.

But as gng4life says...put it in the WSB...will this cover the arse sufficiently?

My take would be if the support as shown in the diagram is of the same dimension as a fault line then it would be legal to step on it without penalty. Now if you were to dig it down a bit so that it stayed stable but was now at ground level or just a fraction over so that the shooters foot touched the ground while trying to stand on it then it would be penalized. To me it comes down to if the foot will touch the ground or not.

I do not think you could get by with dictating the line as off limits in the WSB. If it is a legal line on the ground then you cannot say otherwise in the WSB. You either need to let it be used or you need to cut it off so that it cannot be used.

I disagree, since you're stepping on something on something that's beyond a fault line -- the side fault line.....

No need to cut it, you'd be out.....

Still -- the right way to build it is to cut the fault line.....

[Poppa Bear]

Nik with that reasoning then touching a wall that extends past the side fault line would also be considered out.

[sperman]

This thread reminded of a video from area 6 a while back. I wonder if the shooter (Travis?) got the procedurals for the last 2 shots.

The run I'm referring to starts about 100 seconds in.

Edited January 11, 2013 by sperman

[deacon12224]

I hope no procedurals were given to the shooter in video. Just touching an object outside of the shooting area does not warrant a procedural. The shooter must gain support or stability from his contact with the object in order to warrant a procedural according to the rule.

[sperman]

To me, it looks like he would have fallen out of the shooting area before the last shot was fired, if the wall hadn't been there to catch him.

[Nik Habicht]

Nik with that reasoning then touching a wall that extends past the side fault line would also be considered out.

Depends on where you touch the wall.....

And foot faults are not the same thing as touching an object for support, i.e. with your hands......

And a lot would depend on how it was actually constructed, and how flagrant the violation is. So I'd definitely call it for a competitor who stepped all the way out, and might not call it if I had a who was standing on the corner, and a portion of their foot was creeping over on the outside portion of the front fault line in the drawing, especially if the front fault line was on top of the side pieces.....

I'd still prefer to fix it before the match started....

[Thomas H]

Nik with that reasoning then touching a wall that extends past the side fault line would also be considered out.

Depends on where you touch the wall.....

And foot faults are not the same thing as touching an object for support, i.e. with your hands......

And a lot would depend on how it was actually constructed, and how flagrant the violation is. So I'd definitely call it for a competitor who stepped all the way out, and might not call it if I had a who was standing on the corner, and a portion of their foot was creeping over on the outside portion of the front fault line in the drawing, especially if the front fault line was on top of the side pieces.....

I'd still prefer to fix it before the match started....

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching

the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a

Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an

object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or

Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any

target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one

procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while

faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots

while faulting.

So---if a fault line extends out and someone stands on it, how are you applying procedural penalties? The above rule gives NO basis for any penalties---after all, the shooter is standing on the fault line.

In a similar fashion---if the wall IS the front fault line, the shooter can use any part of it for support. ANY part.

The rule does not allow procedural penalties for anything else.

If you don't want people standing on it or using it, you'd better fix it in the stage design. There are no ground for procedural penalties in the rule, otherwise.

Where are people getting penalties? What part of the above rule says you can say "well, this part is the fault line, but this part that is still the same piece of wood ISN'T the fault line?" Or "you can lean on the wall right HERE, but not OVER HERE?"

That's not the rule.

[grapemeister]

Sorry, had to chime in on this one. The piece of wood sticking out, even though it's part of the same fault line outlining the shooting area, is still outside of the shooting area (shooting box). A piece of wood sticking out of the shooting area or shooting box is not a shooting box or area in and of it's self and no longer meets the definition of a fault line.

My two cents...

And further more, a fault line has to have a purpose as described in the rule book, or it wouldn't be a fault line. Seems pretty simple to me. For God's sakes, it's just a piece of wood sticking out there.

Ok, I'm done.

Edited January 20, 2013 by grapemiester

[sperman]

According to the rulebook, a shooting box is a collection of fault lines. At what point does it stop being a fault line, just because it extends past another fault line?

Shooting Box . . . . . . .A small shooting area (generally square) formed of four connected fault lines.

[partyboy424]

I couldn't find anything in the rulebook that said a fault line had to have a purpose. It describes the definition of a fault line but there is nothing that says it must be used in an exact way to make an exact shape. Just that anything inside of a fault line or on it counts as a shooting area. No different than using a plank as a fault line that a shooter must stand on to shoot from. If there's a wall in front of me and the fault line is sticking out another 6 inches past the intersect. I'm stepping on it to get a better base, the whole definition of a fault line and it's construction makes it clear that it's not only visual, it has to be able to be felt. I don't always look at my feet to make sure I'm in the shooting area or before an intersect, if I can feel a fault line and not the ground, no rules have been broken no matter where that fault line is.

[Thomas H]

Sorry, had to chime in on this one. The piece of wood sticking out, even though it's part of the same fault line outlining the shooting area, is still outside of the shooting area (shooting box). A piece of wood sticking out of the shooting area or shooting box is not a shooting box or area in and of it's self and no longer meets the definition of a fault line.

I take it then that you think that the part of the rule in bold, below, doesn't mean exactly what it says?

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching

the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a

Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an

object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or

Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any

target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one

procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while

faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots

while faulting.

Your example had an object that was not wholly beyond, and was certainly attached to, a fault line. (Because it is the same stick.)

It doesn't have to meet "the definition of a fault line". We don't care what it is called---the rule clearly states that it IS legal to gain "support or stability through contact" with it.

No penalty.

[grapemeister]

Sorry, had to chime in on this one. The piece of wood sticking out, even though it's part of the same fault line outlining the shooting area, is still outside of the shooting area (shooting box). A piece of wood sticking out of the shooting area or shooting box is not a shooting box or area in and of it's self and no longer meets the definition of a fault line.

I take it then that you think that the part of the rule in bold, below, doesn't mean exactly what it says?

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching

the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a

Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an

object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or

Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any

target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one

procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while

faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots

while faulting.

Your example had an object that was not wholly beyond, and was certainly attached to, a fault line. (Because it is the same stick.)

It doesn't have to meet "the definition of a fault line". We don't care what it is called---the rule clearly states that it IS legal to gain "support or stability through contact" with it.

No penalty.

Very good, and I stand corrected. Fault line or not, it's an object attached to, so it's legal to use as support. Thanks to all. I'm an even better RO, now. Good, good stuff.

[aztecdriver]

According to the rulebook, a shooting box is a collection of fault lines. At what point does it stop being a fault line, just because it extends past another fault line?

Shooting Box . . . . . . .A small shooting area (generally square) formed of four connected fault lines.

It doesn't. Here's what everyone is missing. The shooting area is contained by the fault lines. The "fault" area starts where the ground stops and the fault line starts - aka the outside edge of the fault line.

I can step on the fault line I just may not TOUCH the ground on the outside of the shooting area and fire without gaining a procedural for faulting.

In the situation being discussed - consider the extended LINE of the outside edge of the shooting box... where does it go? Instead of proceding forward around the turn - it makes a right angle and continues along the outside edge of the fault line - essentially creating an extension of the shooting area - without any "ground" in the shooting area - just the fault line. Stop thinking about the shooting area being INSIDE the fault line. It's the OUTSIDE edges that matter.

Consider this situation - I get to the corner that the extended fault line is used on - I place my heel firmly on the corner of the box with my toes resting on the extended fault line - that is contended doesn't exist. Am I faulting? The rules require I have tactile feel of whether i'm still in the shooting area - if you "deem" the extended piece not to be part of the shooting area - you now have removed the tactile feel and therefore have an illegal shooting area. It would be the same as using paint to setup a shoot box. I need to be able to feel it.

Does that help?

[grapemeister]

According to the rulebook, a shooting box is a collection of fault lines. At what point does it stop being a fault line, just because it extends past another fault line?

Shooting Box . . . . . . .A small shooting area (generally square) formed of four connected fault lines.

It doesn't. Here's what everyone is missing. The shooting area is contained by the fault lines. The "fault" area starts where the ground stops and the fault line starts - aka the outside edge of the fault line.

I can step on the fault line I just may not TOUCH the ground on the outside of the shooting area and fire without gaining a procedural for faulting.

In the situation being discussed - consider the extended LINE of the outside edge of the shooting box... where does it go? Instead of proceding forward around the turn - it makes a right angle and continues along the outside edge of the fault line - essentially creating an extension of the shooting area - without any "ground" in the shooting area - just the fault line. Stop thinking about the shooting area being INSIDE the fault line. It's the OUTSIDE edges that matter.

Consider this situation - I get to the corner that the extended fault line is used on - I place my heel firmly on the corner of the box with my toes resting on the extended fault line - that is contended doesn't exist. Am I faulting? The rules require I have tactile feel of whether i'm still in the shooting area - if you "deem" the extended piece not to be part of the shooting area - you now have removed the tactile feel and therefore have an illegal shooting area. It would be the same as using paint to setup a shoot box. I need to be able to feel it.

Does that help?

I think you have a good point.