Production optics

[Gooldylocks]

Use Production rules, add slide mounted optics and make the maximum weight 30 oz. without mag.

30 oz would knock out any full size CZ, tanfo, or beretta, not counting the 1911's we are currently discussing. In fact, once you put an optic on it, the new G34 and 35 optics ready would be right at the weight limit, and the FNX 45 tactical that comes precut would be over weight before you even put a dot on it.

[D.Hayden]

i'd vote to let revolvers with Dots (and about any modification i can think of) play here too - gives them a good place

[Southpaw]

Also, I don't see how you can include 1911s and not also all other single action guns. Allowing SA guns means very few people are going to choose to shoot DA or striker fired guns against the SA guns.

I don't agree with that at all. I think 1911's will be at a slight disadvantage to currently popular DA guns, but it *might* broaden participation because many people already have them. If it's based on production, it seems pretty clear that cz and tanfo will be the official go-to guns, because shooters are sheep and that's what's winning right now.

Yes that's a good point. I don't think a division ruled by Tanfos and CZs is any better than another 1911 division, although that wouldn't happen at least at the moment due to availability, and also why I keep saying we shouldn't just mirror Production rules.

I guess I just think I'd be nice if we add a new division the outcome turns out to be a diverse division where we see all sorts of different guns shooting in it.

I'm personally not afraid of 1911s or anything like that (I do often shoot SS). But do we want to bring in new shooters to USPSA with this new division who own a gun with a slide mounted red dot and currently don't want to shoot in Open so just stay home? I thought that was one of the original intents for this new division. Yes I know they can shoot Open, if I owned a Glock or whatever with a slide mounted optic I would, but clearly most people who own them don't want to shoot them in Open since I rarely see them.

And if this new division is supposed to be aimed at this new trend on the market of slide mounted red dots the 1911 really isn't a part of that trend. I did a google images search for "1911 RMR" and saw maybe a dozen examples and actually more pictures of Glocks and M&Ps showed up in that search results than 1911s. Then I did a search for "glock RMR" and saw hundreds of examples...

[motosapiens]

I guess I just think I'd be nice if we add a new division the outcome turns out to be a diverse division where we see all sorts of different guns shooting in it.

I'm personally not afraid of 1911s or anything like that (I do often shoot SS). But do we want to bring in new shooters to USPSA with this new division who own a gun with a slide mounted red dot and currently don't want to shoot in Open so just stay home? I thought that was one of the original intents for this new division. Yes I know they can shoot Open, if I owned a Glock or whatever with a slide mounted optic I would, but clearly most people who own them don't want to shoot them in Open since I rarely see them.

And if this new division is supposed to be aimed at this new trend on the market of slide mounted red dots the 1911 really isn't a part of that trend. I did a google images search for "1911 RMR" and saw maybe a dozen examples and actually more pictures of Glocks and M&Ps showed up in that search results than 1911s. Then I did a search for "glock RMR" and saw hundreds of examples...

I agree that it would be cool to have the widest variety of different guns actually be competitive, but I don't think allowing 1911's would really change that except possibly for the better.... but perhaps no one actually owns a 1911 with a slide-mounted dot, so maybe it's just my personal preference. At least it is something I might use in steel challenge too.

I just did a google search tho for 1911 red dot and apparently it's a bigger part of the trend than I would have guessed. Appears that there are plenty of mount options. Hmmmm.

[bikerburgess]

I had a couple thoughts last night,

Although everything I can compare says 8 Major and 10 Minor are comparable in terms of match performance, 8 Major has a advantage on classifiers, as they are all 8 round friendly and many have partial targets that drive up the C count. I don't know if classifier performance over match performance is a problem but it is worth discussing.

Does anyone have a equipment survey type of report for IDPA's ESP division? I ask because that division allows most 10rd guns regardless of action type,

I also remembered what a fringe group we are, think about the last gun show you went to, picture the big tables full of handguns, hundreds of them right? How many CZ shadows and Tanfo Stock II's did you see? How many S_Is did you see? what I see are a pile of plastic guns, revolvers and 1911's a bunch of Taurus's a small selection of Sig's and some Berretas and a smattering of other odd balls. These are what the non USPSA shooters see when they think handguns.

I also did some more data mining this morning and calculated the hit factor average for the 4 divisions at last years 27 stage Nationals (Open Limited, L10, Production) I used the high hit factor from each division on each stage so I was capturing the division performance not one shooters performance. not surprisingly Open was highest @ 10.2 Limited was second @ 9.01 Production was third @ 8.14 and L10 was fourth @ 8.11

so looking at those numbers this is what I get, Major scoring 2011s in L10 are not enough of a advantage to bridge the gap to slightly better shooters in Production (TJ and TGO in L10 so its not like it was weak), the big mags and major scoring of Limited is worth about 10% over Production and all the bells and whistles of Open are worth about 20%

Edit to add: I just found the combined results for the nationals on practiscore and there TJ beat Ben by 2% Ben beat TGO by 2% the above was based on just hit factor averages

Edited March 27, 2015 by bikerburgess

[bikerburgess]

It is impossible to create a Division rule set that will enforce diversity, there will always be one platform that has either a real or perceived advantage and the shooters will flock to it. (thinks Glocks when Dave was winning Production or Tanfoglios with Ben) Look at the numbers from the last nationals and you can see that a racy 2011 and major scoring is not enough of a advantage to let TJ or TGO beat Ben and JJ (2013 Prod. Nationals Ben only beat TGO by 3%) so these huge differences we are all taking about are actually pretty small.

[bikerburgess]

Here is my proposal for a division,

Firearm must fit in a box 8 15/16" x 6" x 1 5/8" with a opening on one long edge measuring 4 15/32 x 1 5/8 (tolerance +1/16 - 0)

handgun must be placed in box with barrel roughly parallel to 8 15/16" side of box oriented as shown in diagram.

caliber 9x19 or larger

8 round major 10 rounds minor (I don't see a need for a caliber restriction on major)

Optic can not extend rewards beyond the rear of the slide

Maximum weight 50oz

Holster must cover slide to 1/2" from ejection port (revolvers are not subject to this restriction)

No barrel ports or compensators

No barrel weights

No thumb rests

[motosapiens]

It is impossible to create a Division rule set that will enforce diversity, there will always be one platform that has either a real or perceived advantage and the shooters will flock to it. (thinks Glocks when Dave was winning Production or Tanfoglios with Ben) Look at the numbers from the last nationals and you can see that a racy 2011 and major scoring is not enough of a advantage to let TJ or TGO beat Ben and JJ (2013 Prod. Nationals Ben only beat TGO by 3%) so these huge differences we are all taking about are actually pretty small.

I believe both robbie and tj shot 1911's (in preparation for shooting classic at the world shoot).

[bikerburgess]

It is impossible to create a Division rule set that will enforce diversity, there will always be one platform that has either a real or perceived advantage and the shooters will flock to it. (thinks Glocks when Dave was winning Production or Tanfoglios with Ben) Look at the numbers from the last nationals and you can see that a racy 2011 and major scoring is not enough of a advantage to let TJ or TGO beat Ben and JJ (2013 Prod. Nationals Ben only beat TGO by 3%) so these huge differences we are all taking about are actually pretty small.

I believe both robbie and tj shot 1911's (in preparation for shooting classic at the world shoot).

Thanks that's good to know.

[terrydoc]

Not a USPSA shooter but what is wrong with using the Production gun list to allow those particular guns with dovetail mounted optics only for the first (trial period) then expand or contract the allowances as deemed appropriate from there? No weight limits, no box, just throw a dot on your existing gun and play.

That's what I have done here in Australia with my M&P Pro and a couple of guy's have done with their CZ's

Edited March 27, 2015 by terrydoc

[RJH]

Bikerburgess, really like your idea, through out the weight limit and box for revolvers and I think its about perfect. May even get some ICORE guys. Also I shot a little match last night (not official) and a guy was shooting a 1911 with a dot. It was a Springfield Ro and he said it cost him $20 to get his sight mounted. $20 doesn't seem an insurmountable price.

[Swanny10]

Although there apparently is an aversion to using the word "production" in the name of this new division it seems that the production concept is an integral part of it. With that being said, and I'm just spitballing here but, the factory specs for all commercial guns are readily available including the dry weight down to a tenth of an ounce. We can easily find out the weight of all dots that are available. Add the two weights together (add an ounce or two for a buffer) and there are your parameters for fitting into the class.

Or am I totally missing something? Which I probably am. I'm Completely out of my depth on this but after reading 60 pages and getting 20 alerts per day tellin me that a new post has been added I felt compelled to add a couple cents.

[bikerburgess]

Although there apparently is an aversion to using the word "production" in the name of this new division it seems that the production concept is an integral part of it. With that being said, and I'm just spitballing here but, the factory specs for all commercial guns are readily available including the dry weight down to a tenth of an ounce. We can easily find out the weight of all dots that are available. Add the two weights together (add an ounce or two for a buffer) and there are your parameters for fitting into the class.

Or am I totally missing something? Which I probably am. I'm Completely out of my depth on this but after reading 60 pages and getting 20 alerts per day tellin me that a new post has been added I felt compelled to add a couple cents.

I nominate you to verify all the manufacturer supplied weight specs and curate the list in a easy to use format

[Swanny10]

Commercial firearm manufactures routinely lie about their own OEM specs of patented and copyrighted products? And as far as curating a list, that can be done in less than hour with excel. But as I said, I was just spitballing. If it's a shitty idea, so be it.

[bikerburgess]

Commercial firearm manufactures routinely lie about their own OEM specs of patented and copyrighted products? And as far as curating a list, that can be done in less than hour with excel. But as I said, I was just spitballing. If it's a shitty idea, so be it.

I apologize, my remark was a little more smart ass than I intended.

[Swanny10]

Biker-

No worries.

[bikerburgess]

The real question is what would that work (hard or easy as it may be) get us? Does making sure a M+P weighs a pound less than a SP01 make the division more competitive?

[terrydoc]

Whats the reasoning behind having a weight for a Division especially if you use the Production list? Or doesn't USPSA have a list?

[BritinUSA]

There is a Production List.

USPSA allows some modifications to the gun that IPSC does not. In order to make sure that those allowed modifications do not significantly alter the weight, we use the factory supplied weights of the gun to check them at the chronograph.

[Swanny10]

I guess I didnt clarify which problem I was trying to help solve. There would not be an absolute weight for the class. The weight limit would be specific to the make and model. It doesn't matter that gun X is a pound and a half less or more than gun Y. It was simply an attempt to keep guns as close to "production" as possible without trying to make 1911s, G34s, or M&Ps all wearing different dots fit in the same box.

My suggestion does NOT address whether or not SS should be included in the class, round limits, etc.

[Southpaw]

So it seems no one's taking me up on my suggestion to first figure out the purpose for creating a new division before determining the rules for the division. Why do we need a new division? What goals will it accomplish or in what ways will it improve USPSA as a whole? I think if we figure out the best answer to this it'll help us figure out the rules for the division, or does everyone disagree with this premise?

It seems like many of the replies are along the lines of "the rules should be xyz because that sounds like a division I'd be most interested in shooting", or something like that (and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that). But instead should we be thinking about creating a division to bring in new shooters to USPSA? I'm just posing the question, not saying this as a fact. But if so, and I did think that was part of the reason for the initial proposal of Production Optics, take a look at what people are currently shooting who don't already shoot USPSA. There are a million times more people with slide mounted optics on Glocks, M&Ps, FN whatever the model is called than on 1911s, CZs, Tanfos, etc. I'm now referring to the population of people who currently don't shoot USPSA, but decided to get a gun with a slide mounted optic (I believe most of these people did it more for defensive purposes since they're not currently shooting competitions). If everyone's still with me (and I'm not sure if I even am anymore) then we should maybe try our best to make this division not feel like those with a Glock with an RMR are significantly outgunned.

Ok, now just spit balling, and haven't really put enough thought into this, but what about an idea like the following. What I'm attempting to do here is create a division that's pretty wide open and you can shoot almost whatever you want, but at the same time trying to create a somewhat even playing field so people with a stock M&P CORE with an RMR don't feel like there's not even a point in competing in this division since they'd be so "outgunned".

10 round capacity, unless you have any of the following and then 8 round capacity:

-single action

-trigger pull under 4 lbs. (not just on the first shot)

-weighs over 45oz.

-magwell

-I'm probably forgetting something else here

Minor only, optic must be mounted to the slide (or no optic if you want), no comps, thumb rests, slide rackers, Production rules for holster/mag pouches, again probably forgetting something else here.

What'dya think? Horrible idea? I'm trying to come up with something that's fairly open, you can shoot almost any gun you want, but if it's too racy you get a handicap with the mag capacity so the guy with a stock Glock and red dot isn't too outgunned. And now that I think about it, this idea even helps all those people that have guns that don't quite fit into Production like a Glock with too much stippling, now they don't have to go all the way to Limited or Open and even though they don't have a dot they can compete against guns that aren't too far off from what they have.

(I should probably just stop posting in this thread...kinda regretting that I ever started )

[Swanny10]

I completely agree with the premise that defining a purpose precedes defining the rules. But I think that the previous 60 pages of comments has shown that neither of those things are likely to be agreed on by a majority. Maybe it's time for the mod to close the thread.

[Southpaw]

But then we'd need to find something else to argue about

[terrydoc]

I think the original idea from Paul was generally a division with just Production legal guns with a slide mounted optic. period. No SS or any other just Production and I hope as I said in a earlier post that's the way IPSC goes if it does have a trial.

Personally don't care what it's called I will shoot in it but it won't be my primary Division as that Classic with a .45 as we are allowed them now for Classic where I'm living.

Edited March 28, 2015 by terrydoc

[AWLAZS]

Call it tac optics