Garyg19 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I guess I misunderstand, you want all Production rules, except with a slide mounted dot? Ten round mags? Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) I guess I misunderstand, you want all Production rules, except with a slide mounted dot? Ten round mags? Wow. I didn't realize there was misunderstanding of the topic this far into the thread. I'm glad that got clarified so that parties can (hopefully) discuss the same topic now. It may not result in anybody changing their position, but at least there will (should) be a common understanding of the topic. Edited July 19, 2014 by ac4wordplay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I guess I misunderstand, you want all Production rules, except with a slide mounted dot? Ten round mags? Correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) I have seen a few people mention slide mounted dots only. Why would you limit it? A c-more and a frame mount costs less than a good mini red dot and mount or slide machining I thought the argument was to make it less expensive. Edited July 17, 2014 by bikerburgess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I have seen a few people mention slide mounted dots only. Why would you limit it? A c-more and a frame mount costs less than a good mini red dot and mount or slide machining I thought the argument was to make it less expensive. Then it might start to look like a open gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I have seen a few people mention slide mounted dots only. Why would you limit it? A c-more and a frame mount costs less than a good mini red dot and mount or slide machining I thought the argument was to make it less expensive. Because it's for guns that come with a scope on it or the slide is milled from the factory for it. I think any production gun should be included. Glock is never ahead of the curve anymore, so they won't start doing this for a while. But H&K and FN and S&W do this now. A frame mount? Why would you want to do that? They are unwieldy, clunky and don't fit standard holsters. Think slick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgt Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 (edited) No no, this isn't expensive at all! On my CZ for example, a Springer Precision dovetail mount for Shadow is $45, and you can get a burris fastfire III for about $200, so that's it! $250 and you are in - otherwise all production equipment you already have, and works with the holster you have. Fun-est $250 I've spent in a long time! You can certainly get fancier milling the slide for an optic, but I don't think that is required to get all of the benefit of the red dot. Edited July 17, 2014 by trgt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I have seen a few people mention slide mounted dots only. Why would you limit it? A c-more and a frame mount costs less than a good mini red dot and mount or slide machining I thought the argument was to make it less expensive.Because it's for guns that come with a scope on it or the slide is milled from the factory for it. I think any production gun should be included. Glock is never ahead of the curve anymore, so they won't start doing this for a while. But H&K and FN and S&W do this now. A frame mount? Why would you want to do that? They are unwieldy, clunky and don't fit standard holsters. Think slick. I was thinking cheap and durable. a c-more slide ride and a frame mount will last almost forever for about $380 or for about $500 I can mount up a sight that will probably only last a season. As best I can tell the arguments presented in favor of the division have been lo cost and inclusion for people who don't want to buy "real" open guns. Sounds like limiting the sighting system too much would not serve that very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 No no, this isn't expensive at all! On my CZ for example, a Springer Precision dovetail mount for Shadow is $45, and you can get a burris fastfire III for about $200, so that's it! $250 and you are in - otherwise all production equipment you already have, and works with the holster you have. Fun-est $250 I've spent in a long time! You can certainly get fancier milling the slide for an optic, but I don't think that is required to get all of the benefit of the red dot. How many rounds do you have though that set up? It seams like most people I have talked to say their slide mounted optics (insert you favorite brand here) cap out at a bad time sometime around or before 5000 rounds yes there are a few that go longer but many don't yet I don't hear the same issue with frame mounted sights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I have seen a few people mention slide mounted dots only. Why would you limit it? A c-more and a frame mount costs less than a good mini red dot and mount or slide machining I thought the argument was to make it less expensive. Frame mount is not likely to fit in a production legal holster Slide mounted/dovetail mounted only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I'm not sure where you are getting that "last a season" about slide mounted scopes and that Cmores and a frame mount are cheap and reliable. I don't think the arguments are low cost and people who don't want open guns. It's about trends in handguns and staying abreast of a changing landscape in shooting. Nothing to like about a Glock 17 with a Cmore on it. Lots to like about a Glock 17 with an RMR. Or an FN Longslide with a DeltaPoint on it. One can easily imagine them in your glovebox or nightstand or in a concealed holster. Like other production guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 So you want a new division that is narrowly defined to only allow a small range of optics with no room for growth in technology? So a glock 17 with a red dot is good and bad depending on how it is mounted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneelingatlas Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 It's about trends in handguns and staying abreast of a changing landscape in shooting... ... One can easily imagine them in your glovebox or nightstand or in a concealed holster. Like other production guns. Sounds like it would be a good division for IDPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 It's about trends in handguns and staying abreast of a changing landscape in shooting. Nothing to like about a Glock 17 with a Cmore on it. Lots to like about a Glock 17 with an RMR. Or an FN Longslide with a DeltaPoint on it. One can easily imagine them in your glovebox or nightstand or in a concealed holster. Like other production guns. EXACTLY !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 It's about trends in handguns and staying abreast of a changing landscape in shooting. Nothing to like about a Glock 17 with a Cmore on it. Lots to like about a Glock 17 with an RMR. Or an FN Longslide with a DeltaPoint on it. One can easily imagine them in your glovebox or nightstand or in a concealed holster. Like other production guns. EXACTLY !!!! +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgt Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 As best I can tell the arguments presented in favor of the division have been lo cost and inclusion for people who don't want to buy "real" open guns. AND a LOT of folks that for whatever reason choose not to reload. Open division is reloaders-only land. Production Optics friendly to folks buying factory 9mm, similar to how a lot of production shooters are using factory or bought ammo - not reloading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jabbermurph Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 So you want a new division that is narrowly defined to only allow a small range of optics with no room for growth in technology? So a glock 17 with a red dot is good and bad depending on how it is mounted? Quite the contrary. How would limiting to slide mount only do anything but aide in better development for these types of optics Sent from my Z796C using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I didn't say it would not aid in the development of that particular sight what I sud was it would not alow for the development of anything else. My argument is compact red dot sights are not at the end of their development and writing rules that won't allow new developments that may be frame based is not conducive to exploring all the options Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I'm sure slide mounted dots will evolve much more, it's not like new stuff can't be used, it just needs to be slide mounted. Bring on the innovation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 So I guess you are also in the no lasers camp because they mount to the frame? They must belong in open or they must be uncommon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhunter Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 So I guess you are also in the no lasers camp because they mount to the frame? They must belong in open or they must be uncommon Are you trying to help create a criteria, or just trolling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I am try to help create a criteria that actually gets the results people are looking for. The reoccurring themes I see in this thread are Grow the sport by giving those with guns that are not competitive in open but are not legal in other divisions a place to shoot more competitively Have a option to shoot optics on a budget because open guns are too expensive And get ahead of the development curve, lead in this new era as optics being common. I think saying to a new shooter that his glock 19 with a laser is only legal in open but if he had slide mounted a red dot then he could shoot vs guns more like his seams stupid. Do I think a laser is superior to a red dot? No do I think more people have them mounted on pistols? Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trgt Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 So I guess you are also in the no lasers camp because they mount to the frame? They must belong in open or they must be uncommon Lasers should be OK, they are common, we've had folks run them at our night match. With the laser the problem for most is they might not have a holster for it, but thats a less then $100 fix to get fitted kydex. I just ran a thigh rig when I had the laser on the SP01, but will probably get a kydex this fall before the next series of night matches start back up. Seems like if you are already invested in Open, fine, don't worry about this. I'll start keeping better tabs of the production open like guns I see running today open (and ask the folks 'why') Seems like I'm seeing at least one a match, but I haven't been looking around at the other squads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 As best I can tell the arguments presented in favor of the division have been lo cost and inclusion for people who don't want to buy "real" open guns. AND a LOT of folks that for whatever reason choose not to reload. Open division is reloaders-only land. Production Optics friendly to folks buying factory 9mm, similar to how a lot of production shooters are using factory or bought ammo - not reloading. You can shoot open with factory 9mm making minor. Or you could shoot open with factory 40 making major. Add your slide ride, and a 170mm mag and you won't be at that much of a disadvantage. I'm sure you can still make GM with a open glock 40, and beat most shooters at a match if you're good with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I'll start keeping better tabs of the production open like guns I see running today open (and ask the folks 'why') Seems like I'm seeing at least one a match, but I haven't been looking around at the other squads. I'm going to start looking for this too, I've not seen any yet but I haven't been looking either. I did see one glock with a slide mounted dot at the last match. He had a comp, ext mags, big mag well etc. And was shooting 9 major. So i don't think that counts, as he just took it all the way to open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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