Hosing

[JD45]

In Enos' book there is a section about shooting really fast, in practice, just to see what it feels like.

I try to shoot 5 or 6 mags like that in most practice sessions, looking hard for the sights. I'm thinking that your eyes, brain, and subconcious will eventually catch up or at least gain some ground. I am not so sure in my case.

If my trigger finger is working smooth and I can stop fighting recoil and just redirect it , I believe that I could learn to shoot under 10yds. with a target focus.

Am I on the wrong track?

Also, do winning shooters really see so much between sub. .18sec. splits that they can conciously stop their finger by visual cues?

I was watching an old steel challege and was amazed by the fast spilts on make-up shots. No way did they "hear" the first miss at that speed. Do they "feel" it more than "see" it.

Unlike some shooters that dive into IDPA and IPSC with no background, I shot for 10 years, but didn't know what a sub .50sec. split looked like. I have improved a lot in IDPA, but if I joined IPSC I could't even place in B class L-10(in a big match).

I kinda want to know is it important to freakin let-go some in practice and see what happens or is this hurting me?

[Kingman]

Most the time if you miss you know it. I start not knowing when I really push to try to go sub .15 but most the time I just run about .18-.20 and can have great control, and be able to call all of my shots.

I had a popper not go over on me that was hit a little low and did not catch that it did not fall til I lost several seconds.

[blackdragon]

I think at that distance you are looking for muscle memory. If your basics are solid then you will be shooting with feel not sight. Just my 2 cents. Some times you don't know where the edge is until you cross it.

Ivan

SCS Vegas

[Ron Ankeny]

Also, do winning shooters really see so much between sub. .18sec. splits that they can conciously stop their finger by visual cues?

Yes.

[BSeevers]

A lot of shooters can improve with "cadence" shooting drills. Yes you must see the sight on every shot. There is a lot going on that most miss for a while. Cadence drills allow you to see/improve on what it is like to shoot faster but you must learn to call the shot to perform in a match. I can see a lot shooting .11 splits. I used to think cadence drills were wrong til I saw it work. Now it is a drill to speed up not a method of shooting.

Or as Ron says so eloquently, yes

[Flexmoney]

...do winning shooters really see so much between sub. .18sec. splits that they can conciously stop their finger by visual cues?

Yes.

Do they "feel" it more than "see" it.

I have a post around here where I delve into the seeing vs. feeling.

I think that seeing is faster. It is more certain, because seeing is more reliable. Being certain frees you up to move smartly to the next thing.

Feel can be influenced beyond our ability to detect it (tension) while shooting. Of course, you have to be aware of that with vision too, but you ought to be able to "pre-program" yourself to make vision the priority. (as far as pre-programing goes)

[Lino Felarca, M.D.]

Can any of these hosing techniques apply to shotgun, that is, shooting at poppers and plates fast and best way we can? Thanks. Lino

[38supPat]

JD The first thing, and the hardest, to do is accept that you CAN see at these speeds. Judging by your post and your comment that you didn't know what a sub .50 split looked like, I suspect that you are trying to still see the classic definition of a sight picture. For the time being give up on 'aiming'. Put up a target at 7 yds and shoot some Bill Drills. Don't worry about where the hits are, just pay attention to what you see. Where were the sights throughout the string? what was the relationship of the front site to the rear on each shot. It doesn't matter if it wasn't in the notch, as long as you know where it was at the time the shot fired. Even blasting into the backstop can help if you pay attention to the guns movement.

The second hardest thing is to let go of the classic sight picture, you need to figure out what you need to see to hit the target, nothing more.

[Bear1142]

Lino,

I use this technique to shoot poppers with shotguns. Once you get a feel for the rhythm of the shotgun in it's arc of recoil and recovery, it simply becomes a matter of timing the rhythm of the process to the poppers. It can be a very fast and effective technique. I can usually out-shoot my Benelli and cause it to jam if I get too fast.

Erik

[chp5]

I believe that I could learn to shoot under 10yds. with a target focus.

This is very achievable. IMO, the key is to see and focus on the exact SPOT on the target that you want to hit. If you focus on the whole target, you'll get poor hits.

BTW - I've seen Erik out shoot his Benelli! Slow down big guy - we're not going to catch you anyway.

[rhino]

Can any of these hosing techniques apply to shotgun, that is, shooting at poppers and plates fast and best way we can? Thanks. Lino

Lino, I don't think it translates well to shotgun. One of the reasons I am much slower with shotgun now than I was years ago is that I try to use sights (rifle sights on my new barrel) when shooting shot and it's just too slow.

Shotgunning (with shot) is not like rifle or pistol. Once you get the gun shooting where you're looking with a consistent cheekweld, you focus on the target and trip the trigger. If you're trying to get a sight picture, you're going too slowly! It's a lot more "instinctive" than shooting pistola.

[Lino Felarca, M.D.]

Thanks Rhino and Erik. I'll now transfer to the shotgun forum for further comments. Lino

[TRNinTX]

I was discussing this very thing with BJ on Sunday. (It's humbling to be asking your 15 yr old for advice. ) I am actually seeing much faster but shooting slower because I don't trust what my subconcious is seeing. I think this is because I have been shooting a lot in practice with BJ, but not many matches. My eyes see what I need to see and my finger pulls the trigger, but in a match situation I want to look over the sights to make sure I just did what my eyes told me I did, therefore my times suffer because I won't go on to the next target. (Does that make sense?)

It is frustrating to reach a new level and then feel like you are going backwards in your performance.

[Flexmoney]

...but in a match situation I want to look over the sights to make sure I just did what my eyes told me I did, therefore my times suffer because I won't go on to the next target. (Does that make sense?)

Makes sense Tim.

Let me see if I can scary you a bit.

The "looking for hits over the gun" often leads to a something worse...

When the desire to go fast is coupled with looking over the gun for hits, the results often leads to low hits (I call those misses).

Looking for holes in paper, or looking to see if you hit steel can lead to a downward sprial in the shooting. It is one of the hardest things to overcome (the more you miss...the more you want to see).

It is impossible to miss if the sights are properly alinged and on target when the bullet leaves the barrel. Impossible!

Trust the sights. Making reading the sights your goal, not seeing your hits.

[TRNinTX]

Flex,

That's exactly what happened at Tri-State. I would look for holes in the paper then say "Oh yeah, I made that shot" , then forget where I was in the stage, forget a reload, make half a reload (but that's another story), and generally screw things up completely. But on the positive side, I shot the match clean, except for the Clown, and only dropped 5 or 6 D's. So the progress is there if I just trust myself.

Bad thing is I won't shoot another big match until VA/MD Sectional. I have been promoted to "gun bearer" for the next several majors.

[Flexmoney]

Shoot against BJ & Kyle...betting push-ups. That ought to simulate "big match" experience.

You should be able to build "trust" by repitition and experience during practice sessions. (Build calling and trusting into your sub-conscious.)

Might take putting plenty lead down range.

[38supPat]

Might take putting plenty lead down range.

It doesn't have to.

I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that to be a good shooter you have to put a ton of lead downrange.

I'm going to be doing a huge amount of dryfire before Area 2 but probably only a little live fire. I just need to see again. When learning I found that you can 'over do it' in practice. Pay attention to your mind, is it still focused on learning or have you just been pumping rounds downrange mindlessly. Its easy to get in a groove where you spend a whole practice session doing Bill Drills. But did you learn something on each one? Or after 5 or 6 times were you just blasting 6 rounds at the target?

My best practice sessions were usually about 200 rounds. some group shooting to start (vary it each time freestyle, strong hand, weak hand) then a specific drill or skill I wanted to work on, then save some rounds just for some check drills at the end. Eg. draw 1, draw 1 reload 1 etc. or maybe an El Prez.

Any extensive practice I did usually was based around a stage. I'd take a long course and break it down into sections, then work on each section a bit at a time. Eg shooting a string at Pos. 1, then work on move from pos. 1 to pos 2. then shooting Pos 2 and so on. But I'd never stay on one section so long that it became a routine.

I'd shoot the stage for score at the biggining and the end and see what improvement (if any) there was.

Most skills can be learned by dryfiring, even hosing. Try drawing the pistol and tapping the trigger (squeeze if you must ) 6 times. what happens with the sights? what happens with your grip pressure throughout the string. You can learn alot about what happens when you fire a gun without recoil to mask any inconsistancies in your technique.

[JD45]

I can tell you one thing that I see during a Bill Drill when I'm really pushing it. It is the top of the slide at the rear-most position, elevated, in full peak recoil. I don't like that at all. I want my eyes to see the front sight flatten out again, not when it is pointed up. For some reason my eyes lock on to the picture of the top of the slide.

I trained with a borrowed timer one time and the fastest split was a .16, the slowest a .19 . The draw sucked more than usual on that run and I ended up with a 2.26 Bill drill.

Back when I used 20lb. recoil springs I never saw the slide like I mentioned above.

On a different subject, I tried some trigger slapping last week. At 10yds., I calmly held a perfect sight picture and gently(just enough to break) slapped one shot at a time. They all went over 6" low . Then two slaps, and they were also low.

My conclusion is that I don't need to be slapping a 3.5+ lb. 1911 trigger.