Hands relaxed at sides?

[Carmoney]

What is not clear or specific about "hands relaxed at sides"? Seems pretty simple and clear to me.

I think part of the issue is that the phrases "hands relaxed at sides" and "hands above shoulders" have a lot of slack in them and we, as shooters and stage designers, have let that slack be played in the name of "freestyle". One way to stop this would be better, more specific starting positions in the stage descriptions.

Perfect response, I couldn't have said it better myself!!

Y

[Poppa Bear]

It depends on what the shooter needs to do upon receiving the start signal. A start with immediately available targets requires a stricter start position than one that requires the shooter to move several feet to observe the first targets.

You specify standing in box A with arms relaxed at sides and the shooter needs to run into the first position, you might see a few shooters assume an aggressive stance that lets them push off quickly. Put the phrase "standing erect" into the WSB and you have a different requirement.

A good learning experience/thread here about how to better define a starting stance/position.

[a matt]

k it's rule 8.2.2 .standing erect, arms hanging naturally at sides. Facing down range. Technically no one starts like this. See how far it's gone ,

Edited October 23, 2012 by a matt

[Right2Bear]

I can tell you what happened on one of the stages. It is hard to tell from the pics and videos but Tori's left hand was very much in front of her body, almost directly in front of the middle of her torso. She was corrected and told to put hands at sides.

Jesse's hand was 'forward' of her body but not in front of her. That is not to say she shouldn't have been corrected. I'm not saying that at all. But I can tell you that on my stage, she was not nearly as flagrant as Tori was. And that is not to say the two should be compared to each other. They should be compared to the standard and the rules.

These are experienced enough shooters that they should know by now what 'hands at sides' means. So they bring the criticism on themselves but it is the ROs job to enforce the rules. Did Jesse get away with one on the stage, maybe. It happens. It shouldn't but we can't catch everything every time but it doesn't change the fact that Tori 's correction was warranted as she was certainly out of position. Should we let one shooter do it because another did it? No, of course not.

So - that is basically what happened. The troubling thing is that it would appear that after multiple corrections on multiple stages they were still trying to get away with a bad start position every time. One would hope that once a 'professional' shooter has been told several times to use the proper start position they would do so without having to be told at every stage.

[CHA-LEE]

I can tell you what happened on one of the stages. It is hard to tell from the pics and videos but Tori's left hand was very much in front of her body, almost directly in front of the middle of her torso. She was corrected and told to put hands at sides.

Jesse's hand was 'forward' of her body but not in front of her. That is not to say she shouldn't have been corrected. I'm not saying that at all. But I can tell you that on my stage, she was not nearly as flagrant as Tori was. And that is not to say the two should be compared to each other. They should be compared to the standard and the rules.

These are experienced enough shooters that they should know by now what 'hands at sides' means. So they bring the criticism on themselves but it is the ROs job to enforce the rules. Did Jesse get away with one on the stage, maybe. It happens. It shouldn't but we can't catch everything every time but it doesn't change the fact that Tori 's correction was warranted as she was certainly out of position. Should we let one shooter do it because another did it? No, of course not.

So - that is basically what happened. The troubling thing is that it would appear that after multiple corrections on multiple stages they were still trying to get away with a bad start position every time. One would hope that once a 'professional' shooter has been told several times to use the proper start position they would do so without having to be told at every stage.

This is why I said that if I was the RM I would have issued a DQ for repeated blatant attempts to cheat the start position. Repeatedly trying to cheat is Unsportsmanlike Conduct. Getting DQ'ed at a major match for these actions would be a good wake up call. Instead it was allowed to continue and will continue to happen at future matches until proper action is taken to correct it.

[aztecdriver]

The other issue here is that some RO's were starting both Tori and Jessie in this position while other RO's would not start one or both if the arms were not more vertical.

Whatever the final ruling is, it must be applied evenly on all stages to all competitors.

I do not recall any problems from Limited/Production Nationals.

The change in policing this position seemed to occur during the Open/L10 match, but only on some stages. Put simply there was a lack of uniformity then needs to be addressed during the off-season so that all competitors and RO's understand exactly what is required.

The phrase 'arms hanging naturally at sides' or 'hands naturally at sides' (from the Nationals WSB's) is not specific enough, different builds will affect how people's arms and hands are in relation to the rest of their body.

Paul,

Here's the issue. Different people - on a specific stage or person - may be holding the timer - and those ROs may not either catch the start position issue. Is it enough to have the CRO issue a reshoot everytime the shooter is not in the correct start position. Interesting approach - burn all their ammo so they stop trying to game it? I like it. Point being ROs holding the timer rotate through so chances are - from LPR to O/L10 - you probably had someone different on the clock. The ones I saw correcting it - were the CROs of the stages.

Another point. If I am the RO and give you "Are you ready? Standby" and wait 5 seconds and say "Stand at ease", like you do when the timer turns off on you or something like that - and your entire body moves, arms move ,etc. Then you are NOT standing relaxed at sides. Maybe I'll try that as a fix.

Enforcement is a problem. Here's the deal, if we go out and enforce it stringently - and the community starts in with the "range Nazi" mantra - will you write a piece for front sight defending us

[BritinUSA]

Its not so much a problem with the RO's it's a problem with the rules. If I stand with arms relaxed at my sides then my hand is touching my gun, so complying with 8.2.2 puts me in violation of 8.2.3. So I have to move my hand away from the gun which means my arms are no longer relaxed at sides.

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3.

8.2.3 A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or hold a handgun, loading device or ammunition after the “Standby” command and before the “Start Signal” (except for unavoidable touching with the lower arms).

[remoandiris]

I'm glad my natural hanging arms results in my strong hand touching my holster and not my gun.

[Chills1994]

Its not so much a problem with the RO's it's a problem with the rules. If I stand with arms relaxed at my sides then my hand is touching my gun, so complying with 8.2.2 puts me in violation of 8.2.3. So I have to move my hand away from the gun which means my arms are no longer relaxed at sides.

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3.

8.2.3 A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or hold a handgun, loading device or ammunition after the “Standby” command and before the “Start Signal” (except for unavoidable touching with the lower arms).

That sooooo explains why Tori's and Jessie's weakhands were up by their navels. Makes total sense now.

[vluc]

Too bad the two of them don't visit the site. Would be nice to hear from them on their thoughts.

[Mo Hepworth]

Its not so much a problem with the RO's it's a problem with the rules. If I stand with arms relaxed at my sides then my hand is touching my gun, so complying with 8.2.2 puts me in violation of 8.2.3. So I have to move my hand away from the gun which means my arms are no longer relaxed at sides.

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3.

8.2.3 A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or hold a handgun, loading device or ammunition after the “Standby” command and before the “Start Signal” (except for unavoidable touching with the lower arms).

I don't know your physical attributes,..but I have yet to see anyone aside from CAS with hands relaxed at sides whose hand would be touching there holster/ gun. I wear my holster as low as possible, and the inside of my forearm touches the butt of my pistol. Unless I force my hands to point in, my hands don't touch anything.

"Too bad the two of them don't visit the site. Would be nice to hear from them on their thoughts"^^^...I would say they do observe this forum (as well as FB), but choose not to answer... the Match is over....

Edited October 28, 2012 by Mo Hepworth

[remoandiris]

but I have yet to see anyone aside from CAS with hands relaxed at sides whose hand would be touching there holster/ gun.

My hand touches the back side of my holster when my hands are relaxed at sides. At the buzzer, my hand slides up the holster to the grip.

[AZGunut]

I do agree 100% that at a National level match something like a start position should be regulated and enforced. We aren't allowed to have our feel in the wrong position why our hands/arms. I have seem way worse than Jesse and Tori although Jesse is pretty much obvious. Another offender is Shannon Smith he has the single worse hand at sides I have ever seen.

[Flexmoney]

We're done here.

We shouldn't have used any names here in the first place.

_ Admin.