SiG Lady Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 OK, so the issue is getting really muddy and the verdict is far from in. The work (and expense!) of approaching any A+ Certification exams has become questionable. Not the value of studying and learning, of course, but the value of mucking about with the actual exams. I've heard mixed opinions about what they're worth to an employer and--running to catch up with the industry as I am, in the way that I am--leads me to believe that I should just learn how to actually DO things with systems, engage in a self-motivated and aggressive study regimen and develop personal COMPETENCY rather than sweat some tests that may only cost me money and be inconsistent in their content and irrelevant to customers and employers. YOUR opinions, please. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 It all depends on if whom you're going to work for is a certification fan or not. I think most certifications, A+, and all the other corporate mumbjo jumbo are worthless crap. But, there's a lot of people who consider knowing a billion useless Winhell factoids a life and death issue. Know your audience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted August 21, 2004 Author Share Posted August 21, 2004 I tend to agree... and some of what I've found out here 'n there bears that out, but I just want to amass some official opinions from our in-house IT specialists (and folks here 'generally in the know' about such things) to confirm or deny real life demands and functional practicality of "knowledge" vs. "certification." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg G Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 I have been working in the IT industry for around the last 8 years since I left university and at present (at least in Australia) there seems to be a shift back to experience rather than pure certification. With the slow down of the IT sector post Y2K the jobs simply aren't/weren't as available (but are becoming more so) employers are becoming more selective and educated in what they are looking for in a worker, they also have more choice in applicants. Don't get me wrong certification is still important but it tends to be experience and approach in addition that employers look for. Not being familiar with the A+ certifications particularly but aving a certification such as an MCSE, CNE, etc does show that you have learnt the basics and have a good grounding, it also shows you can apply yourself, have self discipline, career direction etc etc. I would disagree with EricW calling it worthless crap, if I you get any tradesman to work for you they should be qualified in some way, I see IT as being no different. Most certifications/exams are a test of retained knowledge and not generally the appliation of that knowledge or even understanding of the underlying principals. They do not show if you can apply what you know or how you approach problem solving, working in a team etc. IMHO you need a mixture of both but you will not get the experience without getting a job first and to get a job you will most likely need a certification of some sort..... All that being said if you have the experience you can usually pass a cetrification exam in your particular area with a some self study and a little preparation.... just my 2c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Certs are a way to improve your resume, not your skills. It's easy to spot people who are "competent on paper," and you don't want to be that person when it happens. Unless you want to work for the government.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidwiz Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 When I was working in IT at a law firm, there were a few people who had the various certifications, but really didn't know what they were doing. The IT dept valued experience/knowledge over a piece of paper. I think you'll find it both ways. Some companies want the piece of paper - and assume that you know what you're doing, others don't care much about certification, as long as you can do the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Certs and for that matter any type of paper qualifications are good for getting a foot in the door in a new industry and for distinction. In this economy with the competition for jobs as fierce as it is, anything to make yourself stand out from the crowd is a plus. Take the test and get the Cert...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 SiG Lady, If you have the time and resources always go for the certification. That said I will tell you that many prefer to hire folks with experience with the boxes that they deliver to their customers. The certification/experience issue is ONE of the catch-22’s of all hiring practices. If entry level folks with very little or no experience are motivated and interested they can get started if they have demonstrated some ability. In this area many organizations require everyone to pass the A+ (hardware or networking) within a year of employment. The best way to show motivation and demonstrate your skill sets is to volunteer with a non-profit. Everybody uses a computer for something (usually to track donors and other volunteers) and many times they have small networks that need attention. That sort of work looks very appealing to employers. And you might wind up with a permenant position. Finally, as a shooter you should understand that there are various levels of competence. I don’t agree with the notion that some people are “paper GM’s”, or that the certifications are just a piece of paper. In both cases I see the result of hard work and dedication. No one can disparage that effort. Get your certification and get to work. geezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted August 23, 2004 Author Share Posted August 23, 2004 geezerlock-- Interesting what you mentioned. I got involved with a non-profit computer lab/hosting service (open to public downtown Eugene) a couple of months ago, and though the place is undergoing serious restructuring (don't ALL non-profits sooner or later) I'm staring modest opportunity in the face and will milk this one to its limits. I personally think know-how/experience is more valuable than the 'paper', but the 'paper' is another formality and protocol element that has a bit of value of its own. I will eventually have both, though it'll likely be sometime on into next year before either really sets in. But that's what being a newbie is about. Scrounging for opportunities (and components! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Interesting what you mentioned. I got involved with a non-profit computer lab/hosting service (open to public downtown Eugene) a couple of months ago, and though the place is undergoing serious restructuring (don't ALL non-profits sooner or later) I'm staring modest opportunity in the face and will milk this one to its limits. See, sometimes old guys have a hint about what is going on out there. One other bright spot with non-profits is you can badger their supporters for old/surplus stuff for the network. They can write it off and feel good about it and you might score a great video card! geezer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted August 23, 2004 Author Share Posted August 23, 2004 geezerlock-- Yerz Truly is the undisputed local Queen of Scrounge... You should see the fun stuff I score at garage sales...! (Last Saturday was a good one, BTW). Sometimes people even just GIVE away stuff. But anyway, the non-profit has already 'given' me a box to putter with, and so I basically replaced as many of THEIR components with MY scrounged parts and they were willing to give me the case for the helluvit. Lower-capacity HDDs are hard to find, however. Something about 10-20GB would be nice, but I've had no luck. And the local techs are hanging onto THEIR piles 'o parts in much the same way I am. I recently contributed some other bit of support to the computer lab's cause, too, so I've sort-of burrowed in a little with them and we'll see where it goes. I'm helping (for one thing) with marketing efforts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sargenv Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 I'm sitting here staring at some quite low capacity drives. Maybe a gig a piece or so. I don't know if you have a use for these at all. If you do, hit me up and I'll see what I can scrounge. Vince Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted August 23, 2004 Author Share Posted August 23, 2004 At this point I'm actually discarding HDDs that are 1-3GB and looking for the 10+GB variety. But thanx. I have an 8GB in the beater box at the lab, an old 6GB secondary HDD in my own system, and want to put a better secondary into the home system without spending way too much just now... then put that leftover 6GB into the beater box as a secondary....... IF there's room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfwmiket Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 If you can afford to take the tests, take them. A+ does not require recertification every couple of years, so once you have it, 'you have it'. It isn't a bad cert to start with, really. I know guys who are router experts that couldn't replace a HDD if their life depended on it. It does boil down to experience AND paper will go farther than either of them alone. The tests themselves are pretty straightforward, so it shouldn't be too much of a stretch to pass with minimal time invested. Good luck...... MiKemaN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 Since I work at a technology company, I will throw my $0.02 in (even though I do not hire our technical people).... Basically, I think all the posts above are valid. Some of it depends on what the company is looking for.... some of it depends on what YOU are looking for etc. We hire people both with and without various certifications. In some cases, we bring a in bright individual with no certifications (or not the cert that we are really looking for), but tell them they need to get through the XYZ certification program by a certain date. They get a job, we pay their education, and once they get the certification completed, they then have not only the certification, but get a raise as well. We also hire people with specific certifications, and generally eliminate anyone that does not have the certification we are looking for right from the start. For example, we are looking for one or two CCIE's right now in Cincinnati. I am pretty sure that only people that have the CCIE certification completed, are even being considered. So I guess to summarize.... having no certifications may not hurt you depending on the position we are trying to fill. However, having one or more certifications can probably never hurt you, and may keep you in the hunt for a job that you would have been eliminated from, without them. Hope this helps.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRD Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 I'd say get it. It can't hurt to have it. It tests mostly PC knowledge from the paleozoic era, but there it is. - Gabe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted August 24, 2004 Author Share Posted August 24, 2004 It was the paleozoic part that was worrying me, frankly. All opinions expressed here, however, seem to have validity in their own right. Much depends upon my ultimate direction with this endeavor. (Probably just free-lancing for a while...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Not sure what certification you're looking towards (or I did, and I'm too old to remember).. but... here's a link on the subject.. http://www.ftponline.com/wss/2004_07/magaz...ns/windowstips/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted September 2, 2004 Author Share Posted September 2, 2004 That's an interesting article... especially given that a female had asked the question. I've had certain guys mention that they thought it was cool that I (the female) was interested in the technical end of the industry. Hey, no problem. I like to tinker as much as anyone. I just rescued a rather innocent-looking old computer box from the dumpster yesterday. The case said "486"... uh, NOT. It was a fully-loaded circa 1999 little treasure that will get a once-over this weekend. The Queen of Scounge strikes again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimel Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 As an IT puke who does hire technical people: Certs mean diddly squat for the most part. I use them as tie breakers for otherwise equal candidates but beyond that...nada. The only exceptions are the Cisco and SANS certs. Especially SANS (www.sans.org). Even some of the lower end Cisco certifcations are becoming pretty devauled. SANS GIAC certification is TOUGH and worth some serious bucks in the job market provided. But those jobs are also pressure cookers. IT Security is a realllll challenging place to be right now. Microsoft certifcations, especially from the NT era are worthless junk. There were too many "boiler room" certifcation places. Show up Saturday morning, pay your money, be spoon fed answers all day Saturday and Sunday. Take cert exam Sunday evening. Get cert. Didn't pass? Come back next weekend for free. I once took the MCSE (?) practice test cold and passed it with flying colors based only on my real life experiences. Only questions I missed were the bizarre ones that didn't reflect real life. Imagine that...Microsoft of that era not reflecting real life....but I digress... There were/are honest certification programs but there are so many dishonest certification programs that they are devaluing the real certs. However, having certifications, even the worthless Microsoft certs, does NOT hurt your resume. It is impressive to those that don't know any better and in many smaller companies the person doing the hiring probably doesn't do IT and they probably don't know better. Certifications are a lot like college diplomas...they help you get that first job. After that it is ALL about experience. That being said...I have lately been seeing a bunch of folks come through with a GED and a pile of certs. Okay...you didn't make it through freaking High School and you want me to believe that you really studied and are tooled up and ready to go based on a bunch of certs? Nyet! My 3 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Hope I don't offend anybody here...but that's never stopped me before. My disillusionment with "Certifications" of any variety came when I realized very early in my career that there was absolutely no performance standard attached to most of them (computer and non-computer related). Pay your money. Get your paper. What really made me want to puke was people who wallpapered their cubicles with the things. No matter how trivial the certificate, it got framed and hung up. All that "prestige" for spending someone else's money and showing up and consuming oxygen for a week. Wow. That's an acheivement. I used to teach classes (at my old job) for customers who just bought out software. 2/3 to 3/4 of the students were totally unqualified to be there. About 4 or 5 of them had to be taught how to use a mouse. I literally sat in the front of the room clapping my hands, trying to teach them how to double click. Every one of them got their certificate. The problem is, that those "certifications" are treated by managerial ignoramuses as being equivalent to certifications where you actually had to study and take a test. Thus, in the end, they're just worthless junk. What would make certification worthwhile, is if you actually *learned* something in the process. If you're genuinely learning meaningful stuff, it has value to you. If it enables you to go into a job interview and talk the talk and walk the walk, do it. If it takes you from making $50 an hour as a consultant to $150/hr, do it. If the course is just "Meaningless NT Kernel Trivia," it's a total waste of your time and money. (At the first hint of a worthless, nonsense course, stand up, get your money back, and leave. No, I'm not even remotely kidding.) I also wouldn't get too hung up on Microsoft either. I've got a funny feeling that the sun is setting upon their empire. (Hey, I called Novell, so I'm 1 for 1) A little UNIX learnin' never hurt anybody... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 What really made me want to puke was people who wallpapered their cubicles with the things. No matter how trivial the certificate, it got framed and hung up. That is so true...... I don't think I've ever hung one up, nor has anyone I respected... It's like those metals in the Army National Guard, that you get for attendance... I have no idea what they're called... they're more embarrasing then anything else. In an inteview, I much rather have someone say I dn't know, but is willing to dig in and find out what happened, than have some certificate, and make up an answer, because they think they should know everything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted September 2, 2004 Author Share Posted September 2, 2004 I'm going thru the motions of "practice tests" (stuff on CD that I've gathered, or that came with decent textbooks, etc.), but the books, the conversations with mentors/friends, and just plain tearing apart a box or two and doing online research about nearly every component IN it (as well as locating all their drivers!)has taught me more than clicking thru a mock test. Certain things on "the exam" will NOT teach me much of anything, from the looks of it--although in some ways the practice tests HAVE brought some things to my attention about which I subsequently did online research. However, some of those myriad annoying factoids I'm trying to learn will simply not stick to my brain--so it's hopeless to keep trying. The stuff that tends to stick are the things I've actually set my hand to or done personal research on, for sure. And, well, a few oddball things that stuck for metaphysically unknown reasons altogether... like the Interrupt Requests and all. God, those just fell into place like Lego blocks and yet I can't always recall the desktop path to change the time-to-monitor-standby power setting, for pete's sake. Again, it may ultimately boil down to experience and motivated research/learning. LINUX: I have every intention of poking about in this side of things. I have a perfect mentor/connection about this right now AND involvement in that public Internet-access lab that's all-Linux-all-the-time. Perhaps I'm in a modestly fortunate postition after all......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 What really made me want to puke was people who wallpapered their cubicles with the things. No matter how trivial the certificate, it got framed and hung up. I don't have any posted, but my Glock armorer's certificate gives me an idea . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SP2 Posted September 3, 2004 Share Posted September 3, 2004 A+, MCSE ect. is not worth the paper its printed on unless you have applied what you have learnt in practice for a minimum of three years. Both the A+ and MCSE qualifications become outdated so quickly as well. Example: I did my A+ in 1997 on Windows 3.11 workgroups!!!! Experience over paper anyday!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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