Harmon Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 what do you do at local matches when guys shoot a 40 caliber gun in both production and limited 10 with the same ammo and claim major?? I guess it would be OK if they were using factory ammo, but the are not they are using VERY minor power ammo. their 40s sound like firecrackers that got wet...brass is ejected mabe 5 inches out of the pistol before falling staight down... the pepper poppers normally catch anyone who is shooting sub minor ammo, but its hard to catch sub major ammo(short of a chrono stage) not many local clubs would want to set up a chrono stage at a monthly local match...bullet puller, scale chrono ect... but i do think a surprise chrono stage would be nice...keep people honest. we have seen 45 200 grain semi wadcutters hit a 2X2 stick and not make it through.... i believe this is unsportsman like conduct...but how to catch it....there really isnt a good way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 In the old days they used to have chrono stages set up at all the local matches. Basically they chronod your gun and did not worry about pulling bullets they just used the claimed weight. Went pretty quickly that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted August 3, 2004 Author Share Posted August 3, 2004 expecting that, his 135 grain bullets would turn into 180s.. thats the kind of person were dealing with. we had a bunch of shooters from dallas area come and shoot(they got especially mad at this guy), the person in question taped maybe 2 targets in a 150 round match... while we were in the texas sun keeping score, being RO, resetting steel and taping targets. then hes the first to pick up everyones brass and leaves as soon as the match is Over. for the most part, i dont think we have problems,,, it what to do with one shooter who wants to just show up and cheat(isnt claiming major while shooting minor loads cheating??) what to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 Be blunt. Call him on it. Tell him you think he is cheating, you have a chrono in your car, would he mind chronoing after the match for let's say.... a wager? $10, $20 whether he makes it? If he really is shooting major, he should have nothing to fear. If he doesn't chrono, at least he knows now how you feel about it, and maybe will correct his behavior. Of course if he doesn't chrono, or doesn't change his loads, and continues to try to cheat, bar him from shooting limited 10 til he proves he has a major load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 If this guy is quite the A-hole you and everyone else says he is, this is what I would do. Prior to the match, make sure you bring a scale and a bullet puller. Next, I'd make sure I have the MD quietly pick up his magazine and quietly strip 8 rounds off then doing a random chrono on him, it's completely legal and the rulebook gives procedures on how to do it, right? If this guy declared major and is shooting minor or sub-minor, call him on it, don't keep letting him get away with it. I make an effort to get along with everyone, but if I were in your situation, I'd speak up because we ALL know when someone is shooting major and when their NOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonub Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 ask him "wow, what kind of supressor are you using? is that legal in our state? Where did you buy it?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Boit Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 I bet everybody knows at least one guy like this. I even witnessed a shooter claiming he shots a .38 super standard pistol to have one of his targets overlayed, he was in fact shooting .40 He hoped it will give him a chance that the RO give him two hits. I hate this ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 Be nice - call a cheater on his/her cheat. Prove their guilt or innocence and have them correct or you appologise. If they are cheating and do not correct, become a bit nasty and pull the rulebook on them - shoot minor/no score, unsportsman like DQ, etc. If this doesn't help get rid of them. This sport does not need people like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 We used to have a revolver shooter that loaded some pretty mild loads (mid range .38 special) in .357 cases. He seemed to think that if he loaded in .357 that it was major power factor (or that we wouldn't notice). At club matches, we just ignored it. At the state match with the chrono, he declared minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 I say just have a chrono stage at your local match. It's good "practice" for real matches (how many of the shooters have chronographed their loads since they were developed? How many powder lot changes/primer lot changes have occured, which might affect power factor? How different is the weather today than the last time any of us chronographed our ammo?). Somewhere around here, Vince Pinto described a stage which had, essentially, a chronograph built into a port...you had to shoot through it during the normal course of the stage, and if one of the two shots didn't clearly make the declared PF, then you could pull the shooter and grab 6 more rounds for testing. And the way this guy sounds, even if he shoots your chronograph, it probably won't break it! DogmaDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 Sorry for the thred drift: I have not thought of that one yet....How far away from the port do you place a chrono to ensure you measure bullet speed and not gas speed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidwiz Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 I've been to a few club matches years ago that had a chrono on the stage. The chrono was setup at the end of barrel that you had to shoot through on a stage. There is/was this one person who has/was getting a rep for shooting Minor but declaring Major. At the stage with the chrono, his rounds were like, "pow, pow, pow" and he gets to the barrel w/ the chrono and his rounds were like, "BAM, BAM, BAM". The MD picked up on of his discarded mags and chrono'ed the ammo - it was Minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 There are as many ways to cheat as there are cheaters...you'll never catch them all.... do like Shred says, carry all the stuff in your car and offer to chrony his stuff after the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 What about the guy shooting major but claiming minor until a major? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeeper Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 I second that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 We always(most of the time) have a chrono set up in one of our bays. I wouldn't have a problem asking someone to "test" their load if I thought it necessary. We provide one for shooters to test their loads. Not everyone has a chrono so this is just another service we provide to our local shooters. TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 I think you guys are all way too sensitive. I can't tell the difference between my 130 pf steel loads and factory .40's. The gun just goes BANG! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 Harmongreer, I don't know about USPSA rulebook, so I'll talk strictly according to IPSC one. 5.6.1 The power factors for each Division are stipulated in Appendix D. One or more official match chronographs must be used to assist in the determination of the power factor of each competitor's ammunition. However, in the absence of official match chronographs, the power factor declared by a competitor cannot be challenged. The only solution is to bring a chrono to the match. You could even advertise the match as having a chrono stage; chances are that kind of guy won't show up. Or you might have the chrono stage unknown to everybody, then have a surprise pull of competitors' ammo (including ammo from this guy) and have'em all chronoed at the end of the match (before posting results). Maybe if he's publicly unmasked, he'll refrain from doing it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 That to me sounds like the best and fairest way to go for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 I don't know about USPSA rulebook, so I'll talk strictly according to IPSC one.QUOTE 5.6.1 The power factors for each Division are stipulated in Appendix D. One or more official match chronographs must be used to assist in the determination of the power factor of each competitor's ammunition. However, in the absence of official match chronographs, the power factor declared by a competitor cannot be challenged. My question still stands... What happens when a person shooting major declares minor until a major? The reciprical of the original thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted August 5, 2004 Share Posted August 5, 2004 Sterling, I guess if the competitor is not chronoed, his claim stands (i.e. minor), but if he undergoes chrono verification, and proves major, he'll be scored accordingly (provided the competitor's declared division can be scored major; no major scoring in Prod even if the competitor is actually shooting 190 PF). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted August 5, 2004 Author Share Posted August 5, 2004 the chrono stage seems like good idea...chrono everyone.... my 9mms make 147 pf, and hammer the steel down faster than mediocre 40s it would be nice if every match had a chrono stage...that would keep people real honest. i hate cheaters. its chrono time baby.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted August 5, 2004 Share Posted August 5, 2004 If a guy wants to claim minor, and shoot ammo over 165 PF, then he should be allowed to do so. The divisions merely specify a minimum power factor in order to score minor, there's no rule that says there's an upper limit. In similar fashion, you could shoot your revolver or production gun in Open division, if you wanted. As for the chrony in the course of fire, I think the barrel trick is pretty good. I also think you'd have to place the targets far enough out to force the shooter to shoot slow enough for the chrony to register all the shots...though I suppose you'd get the first shot even if the targets were close. Hard to believe someone would have a special mag full of major ammo to load when approaching the barrel, and the rest of his mags would be full of minor ammo...seems like much more trouble than it would be worth, and a good opportunity to bollix up your shooting plan. DogmaDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidwiz Posted August 5, 2004 Share Posted August 5, 2004 Hard to believe someone would have a special mag full of major ammo to load when approaching the barrel, and the rest of his mags would be full of minor ammo...seems like much more trouble than it would be worth, and a good opportunity to bollix up your shooting plan. That's the lengths people will go to to cheat. Sad, but true. Seen it happen. At some bigger matches I've been to, it is up to the competitor to supply the chrono ammo, by putting 10rnds in a bag, which is then collected by one of the match staff - this allows cheating to occur, as the declared Major - shooting Minor compeitor will put his/her secret stash of Major all in the bag. At some other big matches I've been to, one of the match staff will stop by each stage to collect the chrono ammo and tell each competitor, "I would like 10 bullets from that mag." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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