APPENDIX D5 — Single-Stack Division

[Aglifter]

Scales can be off by not being level, not being calibrated, etc - its surprising how far off some scales can be. (A calibrated scale costs quite a bit more than a non-calibrated one, although, if that's the only weight needed, a calibrated check scales might not cost too much.)

[ktm300]

Unfortunately at the CRONO. It doesn't matter at the major match, what your crono/scale at home read. I agree there needs to be a certified scale, but at present I have shot 5 different majors and no two have used the same scale nor type, except for the Nationals. All of the SS Nationals I've shot they used the same or it appeared to be the same scale. Not so at 3 different Sections and 2 Area matches.

I don't care that it is the same scale, I care that there is a way to ensure the scale is accurate and used correctly. Just like the bullet weight scale has a set of standards and procedures spelled out in the rulebook, the gun weight scale should have the same. Currently I don't think there is a way to argue with the match scale even if you know it is way off.

The $50 scale I have at home when used correctly is well within +- .1 oz compaired to the very expensive, well maintained scale at the office. To me +- .1 oz would be fine, +-.5 oz is not. +-.1 oz is not a lot to ask. I would like +- .05 but that gets into little more expensive scale.

What a lot of people don't understand is that a scale not set up correctly can be way off while the same scale set up well and calibrated works just fine.

[steel1212]

The second question (I'm reading between the lines here a little bit is: "What do you do if you know your gun is legal, but the scale at the match says it is too heavy."

I know Matt has access to multiple scales that are calibrated by NIST standards. If all of those scales say the gun is 42.8, why shouldn't he be comfortable taking that gun to a match and not having to sweat the chrono?

Perfect! Why didn't I say that

The same reason if your chrono at home says 125.2 for minor and the one at the Major Match says 124.9. Thats just a few FPS but you shooting for fun. No way I would give only 0.2oz wiggle room. Heck I probably wouldn't like 1.0 wiggle room.

[Skydiver]

Personally, I wouldn't push the limits that close.

But if I were in that situation where my gun was just a few fractions of an ounce off, I would take a stack of 4 or 5 quarters and have them weight that on the approved scale for bullets. Convert grains to ounces. Then take same quarters and put it on the scale with the gun. The scale should go up the number of ounces computed from the bullet scale. If not, you already have one point of debate. Next take the gun off the scale and leave the quarters. The scale should read the same value as the computed value. If not, you have another point of debate. And lastly, take quarters off the scale and put back on. It should read the same as last time.

If the chono staff response is "But the gun scale isn't geared for reading fractions of an ounce.", then I would respond back with "So you are bumping me to open for being a fraction of an ounce over the weight limit, but the scale that you used to weight my gun isn't geared for reading fractions of an ounce?"

(Maybe some procedure like this can be put in the rule book to challenge a gun scale if there isn't a check weight?)

Edited July 26, 2012 by Skydiver

[bbbean]

I know Matt has access to multiple scales that are calibrated by NIST standards. If all of those scales say the gun is 42.8, why shouldn't he be comfortable taking that gun to a match and not having to sweat the chrono?

42.8 doesn't leave much room for powder residue, grease, lead, mud, dust, or other gunk that can accumulate in a gun. I've weighed my gun before and after cleaning and found as much as a 1 ounce difference on the same scale (granted, that was after 8000+ rounds without a cleaning, but still...). Wouldn't you hate to go open because you didn't get to clean your gun before the big match and the combination of your powder, bullet, and humidity managed to add a quarter ounce of weight to your gun?

My SS guns weigh in at 41.9 and 39.5, my load chronos between 173 and 178. I never lose sleep over the chrono stage.

BB

[steel1212]

Personally, I wouldn't push the limits that close.

But if I were in that situation where my gun was just a few fractions of an ounce off, I would take a stack of 4 or 5 quarters and have them weight that on the approved scale for bullets. Convert grains to ounces. Then take same quarters and put it on the scale with the gun. The scale should go up the number of ounces computed from the bullet scale. If not, you already have one point of debate. Next take the gun off the scale and leave the quarters. The scale should read the same value as the computed value. If not, you have another point of debate. And lastly, take quarters off the scale and put back on. It should read the same as last time.

If the chono staff response is "But the gun scale isn't geared for reading fractions of an ounce.", then I would respond back with "So you are bumping me to open for being a fraction of an ounce over the weight limit, but the scale that you used to weight my gun isn't geared for reading fractions of an ounce?"

(Maybe some procedure like this can be put in the rule book to challenge a gun scale if there isn't a check weight?)

While I agree with you, let me play devils advocate for a second. Because there isn't any procedure, the staff can simply say....no. They don't have to because there isn't anything that says they have to.

[ktm300]

The same reason if your chrono at home says 125.2 for minor and the one at the Major Match says 124.9. Thats just a few FPS but you shooting for fun. No way I would give only 0.2oz wiggle room. Heck I probably wouldn't like 1.0 wiggle room.

There are a lot of variables in trying to chrono a load. From the quality of your press to the temperature to the humidity to the case, to how hot the gun is, and the light going around the chrono and on and on and on.

Weight has none of that, you should be able to show up with at 42.9 oz gun and pass every time even on a $50 postage scale if it is set up and checked correctly.

Below I put in the section of the rulebook that deals with how to set up and run a scale to get bullet weight.

How can we have so many rules about how to set up and run the scale to get bullet weight at chrono and nothing about how to set up and run a scale to weigh a gun?

Both bullet weight and gun weight can mess up a match big time for a shooter.

This is the section in the rulebook about the weight of bullets:

Page 68 in the current book

Scale(s):

6. Scales must be shielded from the wind to prevent errors in measurement

while weighing competitor bullets.

7. Two scales are recommended when available, weighing each bullet tested

on both scales.

8. Whenever possible, the scale(s) should be run on AC power. If using generator

power, the scale readings must be monitored for consistency. If using

battery power, the batteries must be changed or recharged as necessary to

insure consistent results

9. A set of appropriate check weights must be used in calibrating the scale(s).

10. Failing these conditions, or if a scale is not available, each competitor’s

declared bullet weight must be used.

AND on 69 and 70 you have this:

Scale(s):

21. Prior to weighing any competitor bullets, the Chrono Officer will calibrate

each scale using the scale’s supplied calibration weights per the manufacturer’s

instructions, following which the scale will be zeroed and a designated check weight(s) will be weighed on each scale and the results recorded.

22. For the duration of the match, a scale is considered to be in tolerance if

a. the scale is able to maintain a weight display stability of +/- 0.1 grain

over a 15 second period, and

b. the scale is able to repeat the results of the recorded weights in Item 21

within +/- 0.1 grain.

23. A scale suspected or found to be out of tolerance will be reset (calibrated

and zeroed) and demonstrate satisfactory tolerance prior to being returned

to service.

24. A scale failing Item 22a must be checked for effective wind protection and

stable positioning prior to reset.

25. If it is determined that a scale is unable to remain within tolerance or has

failed, it must be removed from use. A replacement scale may be utilized if

it can be calibrated, zeroed, and be demonstrated to be in tolerance.

26. If more than one scale is in use, and one has failed, the remaining scale can

be used alone for the rest of the match.

27. If the Range Master determines that variances or malfunctions make further

weight testing unreliable or impossible, the bullet weights declared by all

competitors whose bullets have not been weighed will be accepted without

challenge, subject to any applicable Division requirements.

[Skydiver]

Personally, I wouldn't push the limits that close.

But if I were in that situation where my gun was just a few fractions of an ounce off, I would take a stack of 4 or 5 quarters and have them weight that on the approved scale for bullets. Convert grains to ounces. Then take same quarters and put it on the scale with the gun. The scale should go up the number of ounces computed from the bullet scale. If not, you already have one point of debate. Next take the gun off the scale and leave the quarters. The scale should read the same value as the computed value. If not, you have another point of debate. And lastly, take quarters off the scale and put back on. It should read the same as last time.

If the chono staff response is "But the gun scale isn't geared for reading fractions of an ounce.", then I would respond back with "So you are bumping me to open for being a fraction of an ounce over the weight limit, but the scale that you used to weight my gun isn't geared for reading fractions of an ounce?"

(Maybe some procedure like this can be put in the rule book to challenge a gun scale if there isn't a check weight?)

While I agree with you, let me play devils advocate for a second. Because there isn't any procedure, the staff can simply say....no. They don't have to because there isn't anything that says they have to.

Then how can they accurately do their duties with regards to C2.47.c if there is some doubt on the accuracy of the scale? Is the presumption the match scale is accurate?

[ktm300]

Is the presumption the match scale is accurate?

I guess it is.

[pskys2]

You should be able to make weight with any magazine you may be using at the match.

Your SS may need a diet. Try taking out the FLGR and using a standard short one. You will save an ounce.

I actually don't like the extra weight of a FLGR.

Edited July 27, 2012 by pskys2

[Koppi]

I have a Caspian Race ready, they come in heavy. When I got done taking metal out, it came in at 42.9 with the heaviest mag, (1 out of 10) I have in it at the local post office. It was the same at SS nationals. One thing for sure is the box at Nationals is the tightest I have come across. Our Section box is loose in comparison.

[Skydiver]

Is the presumption the match scale is accurate?

I guess it is.

Then I don't see anything wrong with verifying that accuracy (or is it precision?). But I do see your point that as the rules stand now, there is no requirement that the accuracy be tested or proven.

[Braxton1]

...it came in at 42.9 with the heaviest mag, (1 out of 10) I have in it at the local post office.

Wow! Just WOW! Your local Postmaster allowed you to weigh A GUN on their scale. You, my friend, live in an enlightened area! Appreciate it.

My Postmaster nutted up so badly when a box of Precision Delta bullets arrived that were marked simply "9mm 124FMJ" on the outside. We get a 911 call about a suspicious package. I respond. They have this thing in a corner of the post office, cordoned off with crime scene tape, like it was going to kill us all. I walked up to it, said "Hey, this is MY package!" and walked out with it. I asked the Postmaster if everyone got the same "We'll call you when it comes in" treatment and thanked her for her customer service.

I now specifically instruct Precision Delta to NOT put anything on the side that indicates "bullets might be inside". Even though you'd think that they would figure out "One-half cubic foot. 65 pounds. Do you think that it's chicken feathers in there?".

[twodownzero]

This is why we should just raise the weight limit to 45 ounces. Seriously, people, there's more weight difference than the OP is talking about here in magazine full of 230s versus a magazine of 185s. It wouldn't kill us to raise the limit far beyond what any normal 1911 with a magwell and grips would ever see.

[ktm300]

I got in a new set of grips from Larry Davidson last night. They are actualy .1 ounce lighter than a set of aluminium ones I have. The come in on the lite side of 1.6 oz. That gets me to the low side of 42.7 (1209.16 grams) with my normal mags. I am going to call it good and take my chances at area 8. I am going to take a 1000 gram certified weight with me just for the sake of argument. I am working the match and I can probably talk the crono guy into at least testing his setup with that weight before the match starts. 35.2 oz or 35.3 oz would be close enough for me. On my $50 postage scale at home it reads 35.3 when the scale is level.

As to the suggestions about replacing the guide rod etc. I love the way this gun feels and shoots. I don't want to change anything just because I am scared that the scale at a match is not going to be set up correctly.

On bullets and post offices. My local PO calls me when my bullets show up. They just leave them by the door so they don't have to move them.

Edited July 27, 2012 by ktm300

[ktm300]

This is why we should just raise the weight limit to 45 ounces. Seriously, people, there's more weight difference than the OP is talking about here in magazine full of 230s versus a magazine of 185s. It wouldn't kill us to raise the limit far beyond what any normal 1911 with a magwell and grips would ever see.

45 oz sounds good to me but we still need to define how we set up a scale and weigh a gun.

[twodownzero]

This is why we should just raise the weight limit to 45 ounces. Seriously, people, there's more weight difference than the OP is talking about here in magazine full of 230s versus a magazine of 185s. It wouldn't kill us to raise the limit far beyond what any normal 1911 with a magwell and grips would ever see.

45 oz sounds good to me but we still need to define how we set up a scale and weigh a gun.

Yes, I agree. Competitive equity is very important. But the purpose of raising it to 45 ounces is to eliminate excuses more than to allow heavier guns. Not that I really care if people are running heavier guns, because the equipment really doesn't make that big of a difference.

[sperman]

It sounds to me like there are 2 paths you need to follow:

1. Petition your SC, AD and NROI for changes to the scale procedure for weighing guns.

2. Until the rules are changed, you will have to do what you feel comfortable with to make sure your gun makes weight at chrono.

Good luck. See you in the morning.

[ktm300]

It sounds to me like there are 2 paths you need to follow:

1. Petition your SC, AD and NROI for changes to the scale procedure for weighing guns.

2. Until the rules are changed, you will have to do what you feel comfortable with to make sure your gun makes weight at chrono.

Good luck. See you in the morning.

I have done #1 in an email to Linda but not to NROI.

I think with .3 oz I am going to be OK at Area 8. I will take my certified weight with me.

You can pick up my brick of a single stack gun at the safe area if you feel like you need an extra workout.

[Gary Stevens]

This is why we should just raise the weight limit to 45 ounces. Seriously, people, there's more weight difference than the OP is talking about here in magazine full of 230s versus a magazine of 185s. It wouldn't kill us to raise the limit far beyond what any normal 1911 with a magwell and grips would ever see.

And then the wail will be my gun weighs 44.9 ounces and I am afraid to go to xyz match

[ktm300]

And then the wail will be my gun weighs 44.9 ounces and I am afraid to go to xyz match

Again that is why we need a procedure in the rulebook on how to set up a the scale to weigh guns. Then you should be able to repeat that at home and feel comfortable that you can make weight.

With the way the book is now you could have a 42 oz gun and end up in Open. I can make my $50 postage scale at home read a full ounce off by geting it out of level by 1/2" and putting the gun on the uphill side of the platform. My guess is you would wail pretty hard about that.

[aztecdriver]

This is why we should just raise the weight limit to 45 ounces. Seriously, people, there's more weight difference than the OP is talking about here in magazine full of 230s versus a magazine of 185s. It wouldn't kill us to raise the limit far beyond what any normal 1911 with a magwell and grips would ever see.

And then the wail will be my gun weighs 44.9 ounces and I am afraid to go to xyz match

This. I mean seriously. The same argument was 140 is too tight. Give us some leeway, now people are pushing that limit.

[Gary Stevens]

And then the wail will be my gun weighs 44.9 ounces and I am afraid to go to xyz match

Again that is why we need a procedure in the rulebook on how to set up a the scale to weigh guns. Then you should be able to repeat that at home and feel comfortable that you can make weight.

With the way the book is now you could have a 42 oz gun and end up in Open. I can make my $50 postage scale at home read a full ounce off by geting it out of level by 1/2" and putting the gun on the uphill side of the platform. My guess is you would wail pretty hard about that.

I think you missed my point. No matter what the weight is, someone will want to get as close to it as possible and then complain that the weight needs to be raised. While it is very simple to use a check weight for the scale, I don't know how many actually do it.

[twodownzero]

This is why we should just raise the weight limit to 45 ounces. Seriously, people, there's more weight difference than the OP is talking about here in magazine full of 230s versus a magazine of 185s. It wouldn't kill us to raise the limit far beyond what any normal 1911 with a magwell and grips would ever see.

And then the wail will be my gun weighs 44.9 ounces and I am afraid to go to xyz match

Nope, because we already built plenty of cushion into the rules. You have to actually try to push your luck if the rule was 45 ounces. Not so with 43. There are factory guns out there that with a magwell and grip change would exceed the weight limit. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a factory gun that was >45 with the common add-ons and nothing else done to it.

I do think it'd be possible for people to push their luck with a higher weight limit, and hopefully they'd get stung. But that doesn't change the fact that giving competitors a little bit more cushion would eliminate problems (e.g., needing an aluminum MSH or a GI guide rod to make weight, which costs money for no material benefit in competitive equity).

At 45 ounces, nobody would have any excuses. At 43, I don't think that's the case, although 43 is admittedly more lenient than IDPA if I recall correctly.

[ktm300]

I think you missed my point. No matter what the weight is, someone will want to get as close to it as possible and then complain that the weight needs to be raised. While it is very simple to use a check weight for the scale, I don't know how many actually do it.

I got that point and agree that no matter where you put it people will push it. That is the nature of competition. Would I like it to be 45 so I don't have go buy expensive parts to make weight, yes. Do I need it to be 45, no.

My point is we need a way to know how the scale is going to be set up and how the gun is going to be weighed. This would allow us, if we choose, to check out the weight of the gun in the same way they are going to check it. Then if they have a bad scale, or scale setup we need to have a way in the rules to argue getting bumped to open. Currently there is none of that.