Jack Suber Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 This has probably been covered before, but I want to narrow it down a bit: The week before last, I had Lasik surgery. I was near-sighted with a contact prescription of -3.00 on each eye (I couldn't make someone's face out at 7yds without my contacts or glasses). Over the years, I also seemed to have developed the symptoms of cross-eye dominance though testing for eye-dominance would indicate that my right eye was my dominant eye. I would experience double vision if I aimed my pistol at a target (popper or paper). I would actually see multiple targets unless I closed one eye. If I focused on my front sight as if I was shooting a tight shot, head-shot, or a popper, I would see a double image to the left of the target. there were times when I would actually think the image was another target. The only fix was to close one eye (something that wasn't comfortable with contacts) or use tape over my left lense. The tape refined the sight picture significantly, however, I had to use a large piece of tape (3/4" X 3/4") in order to get clarity of the sights/targets. This effected my peripheral vision on my left side. I decided to live with it since it was the only way I could see clearly. The Lasik surgery is a miracle! I was 20/20 the following morning and have been ever since. I am seeing better than I ever did with glasses or contacts. I should have done this 3 years ago. Anyway, I began dry-firing the day after the surgery to "see" how it affected my vision. Everything was dramatically clearer. So, Saturday I went to the range and started by shooting groups at 15 yds. I was a little startled to discover that if I was really focusing on the front sight (attempting to shoot tight A-zone shots), I still had a slight double vision (or shift) in the image of the target. Whichever target I focused on, I would see a double image slightly to the left of the target (no where near the shift before the surgery, but it is still there). Closing one eye fixes the problem. So, I tried tape again and noticed that I needed only a very small piece (1/4" X 1/4") directly infront of my lense to illiminate this double vision. Eye dominance test still indicate that my right eye is my dominant eye. So, I began wondering if this is a common thing: Those of you with 20/20 eyesight (corrected or not) and who are right eye dominant. If you focused on the front sight while aiming at a popper or target at 15yds or greater; do you have this double image or image shift? If so, how do you deal with it? Do you squint when taking a tight shot? Have you trained yourself to ignore it? My opthamologist thinks that I might have trained my eyes to the tape and they need to normalize. But I was wondering if people with "normal" eyes experience this "double-vision." What really throws me is that I am clearly right-eye dominant. However, the only way I can stop this is to block off my left-eye. Any thoughts or experiences. I know that if you focused on the front sight, the target should become blurry. But should the image double? Some guys I shoot with say that they have never had a problem with the clarity if the target/sights. Is this possible? Any feedback sould be appreciated. Thanks. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 I close my weak eye to avoid the double images in the background. I can't shoot with both eyes open because of the double images. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted August 2, 2004 Share Posted August 2, 2004 On shots longer than about 12 yards I do what Erik does. I get double images at those distances. Anything closer I shoot with 2 eyes open (I have -2.25). BTW, Eric Grauffel does the same thing, so it is possible to be an OK shooter that way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Suber Posted August 3, 2004 Author Share Posted August 3, 2004 That makes me feel a lot better. For the life of me I could not understand how someone could see a target/sight clearly at that range without closing/squinting an eye or dealing with a double image. At least my eyes are better now. Thanks for the feedback. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twix Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 Ditto Spook and ErikW. I need to close my left, non-dominant eye for shots over 12-15 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 With a FO in the front sight, I can use the ghosted image of the target from the nondominant eye as a silhouette against which I place the "dot", seen through the dominant eye. It works for me up close, and for full targets out to 15 yds. But for partials and longer shots, I need to suppress the image for a more precise sight picture, and closing my nondominant eye is more reliable for that than having my brain flip the switch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted August 3, 2004 Share Posted August 3, 2004 Same thing for me. At closer distances I can keep both eyes open, but at longer distances, where I really need to focus on the front sight, I've got to close my right eye a bit (I'm cross-dominant). I don't close it completely, but enough so that I don't have the dual image... there's also less stress in my face when I do this (as opposed to completely closing the eye), which helps me focus on the sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 one day, many years ago, i learned on my own while shooting a marlin model 60, that i could shoot faster more accurately with both eyes open. never looked back since. i cant ever remember seeing double, ever.. i was blessed with better than 20-20 vision, but the deeper i get into this practical shooting stuff, im finding out lots of wierd stuff.\ one day on weak hand draw, i drew the gun, shifted to lefty, then went to aim. I got the sights aligned with my left eye, and my right eye wasnt trying to fight it....and i thought i was right eye dominant. i can now shoot either eye, both eyes open.....pretty cool trick, as dont have to lean too far out the left side of a barricade to get the sights... im gonna have to stop doing this, as i fear my right eye will get jealous and neiter will allow me to shoot. it must be wierd to be cross dominant...i can only imagine the pain you guys have with shotguns. i feel for ya man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 Yeah, shotguns tire me out as I have to force my right eye to see the sight(s)... same with rifles, though it's easier with magnified optics. A lot of the time I end up closing my left eye completely. It's interesting, to say the least. With pistol, however, I can't shoot with my right eye. Have to change my grip and stance too much and it just feels awkward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 Those of you with 20/20 eyesight (corrected or not) and who are right eye dominant. If you focused on the front sight while aiming at a popper or target at 15yds or greater; do you have this double image or image shift? Yes, you will due to an unavoidable law of optics called parallax. Closing one eye fixes the problem. Looking out using only one eye, you can change focal point all you want and the objects are still in line with the seeing eye. It's when two eyes are used that parallax occurs. Whatever point you focus on using two eyes, you will gat a second image in front and also behind that point. If you draw lines out from each eye that cross at the point of focus, you will see why it's true. Thos lines will be separated at any distance other than the focal point. I know that if you focused on the front sight, the target should become blurry. But should the image double? getting a second image in one eye only is odd. I suspect your eye is torquing the focus muscle which is causing an "astigmatism" like effect at ranges beyond the focal point. Also, it's possible the alteration done surgically affects how the lens changes as you focus.FWIW, I have terrible nearsightedness and sometimes my blurry vision at a target spot will show a big fuzzy dot and a second kind of dot over it which is a little clearer. Maybe this is the kind of effect you are seeing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Post Posted August 4, 2004 Share Posted August 4, 2004 Maybe I'm differant then everyone else, but if I don't close my non dominant eye I often see two front sights. This goes away after a few shots and I can then open both eyes. I used to have better then 20/20 vision but reading glasses are in my near future. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harmon Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 try to focus on the sights with you dominant eye, everything else with the other... I dont know what im actually looking at with my left eye when the right one is seeing sights, but seems like i see the A zone*all of the a zone....even the part covered by my gun that my dominant eye doesnt see... yes yes i just confirmed it with a sight picture on the dryfire target.. i am looking at the sights with one eye, the target with the other. this way it almost makes the gun look translucent...i see it all...the target, the sights ect. i need to work on moving through a field course better, i can shoot good, but gettting there is the problem, and shouldnt be...seems like in matches im scared to run Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wsimpso1 Posted August 6, 2004 Share Posted August 6, 2004 Keeping both eyes open and uncovered means dealing with parrallax. You have to accept one of two things: You put the images of the front sight together, and that leaves you with an extra target, OR You put the images of the target together, and you have two images of the front sight. Practice at it and you may be able to train yourself to pay less attention to the extra images - turn off the input from the off side eye... Putting the front sight images together and ignoring the extra target image is probably easier because you want to drive focus on the front sight, not the target. The cowards' way out is to just put that patch of tape on the off side lense to block you view of either the sight or the target and have at it. By the way, I have recently become a member of the "eye surgery changed my life" club. For a long time, I had thick glasses and I was left eye dominant (cross dominance), but that might have been due to the optometrist not being able to get 20/20 correction for the right eye, and 20/20 was obtained in the left... Then I had cateract surgery (at 44!) and Doc Finkelstein dialed off most of my nearsightedness and a bunch of astigmatism went away too. Corrected, the right eye is 20/15 and and the left is between 20/15 and 20/20. Funny thing, the dominance has shifted to the right eye, but only barely. My eyeballs now are fixed focus, so I have shooting glasses corrected to put the front sight of rifles and pistols into focus, and I just have to accept blurred targets. My solution after that was just to add a dot of tape and go shoot. Yeah, I did just call that the cowards' way out, but as my right eye gains dominance, I am learning to ignore the left eye during shooting and I am having a ball! Now to really confuse things. The other day, I forgot to change to my shooting glasses on one stage, shooting with my regular glasses. Sights a bit fuzzy, double images, etc, and I still dropped only a couple points with a good time (for me). I only noticed that I forgot my shooting glasses when I went to change glasses after scoring... So, whatever you try, do it for long enough that you fully adapt to it before condemning the method and going back to something else... Billski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carinab Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Since a number of you have had lasik, I'd like to ask a question. My distance correction has gotten to the point where things at arm's length (like my front site) are starting to fuzz ever so slightly (-3.00 correction left eye, -4.50 on right). I don't think it's that middle age, reading glass thing going on because if I use one of my old -4.00 lenses in the right eye, the front site is sharp again. The question I have is if you have lasik, would only the distance focus be corrected? In other words, would I have the front site fuzzy at arm's length like I do while wearing the full strength lenses or does it correct your focus at all distances? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Since a number of you have had lasik, I'd like to ask a question. My distance correction has gotten to the point where things at arm's length (like my front site) are starting to fuzz ever so slightly (-3.00 correction left eye, -4.50 on right). I don't think it's that middle age, reading glass thing going on because if I use one of my old -4.00 lenses in the right eye, the front site is sharp again. The question I have is if you have lasik, would only the distance focus be corrected? In other words, would I have the front site fuzzy at arm's length like I do while wearing the full strength lenses or does it correct your focus at all distances? Thanks! The question I have is if you have lasik, would only the distance focus be corrected? YESIn other words, would I have the front site fuzzy at arm's length like I do while wearing the full strength lenses or does it correct your focus at all distances? No, it is impossible to correct at all distances. In fact, the only reason the human eye can focus at more than one distance is the muscles which stretch the lense to change it's shape. As you get older, it gets stiffer and stretches less and less... so your ability to focus at closer distances gets less and less.I don't think it's that middle age, reading glass thing going on Are you over 40? It usually hits about there.FYI, a scrip of -4.50 diopters is VERY strong... I'm blind as a bat and I am only at about 3.25. A 4.50 scrip would be very hard for an aging eye to be able to "pull in" to near focus compared to a lighter scrip. One option you have which I use is to get shooting glasses with the full distance scrip in the left lense and an "intermediate" focus scrip in the right lense that makes it easy for your eye to see the sights. Works great for me, might drive some people crazy. Your doctor knows all about it: it's called "mono vision" and people have been doing it for years. They use it with contact lenses and glasses if they don't want bifocals. Your brain has to learn to pay attention to one eye or the other depending on range... easy for some to do, impossible for others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carinab Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 I'm 38 (shhhh, don't tell anyone)... So if I understood your post correctly, if I got corrected to 20/20 my front site would get slightly fuzzy....Bummer. I suppose you could correct just shy of 20/20.... Or I can do what I do now and wear a slightly weaker than full strength lense. I doubt I could do the mono vision thing. I have to use a piece of tape on my left eye side shooting glasses or the round count on the stage doubles (more targets). BTW, you should have seen the look on my optometrist's face when I asked if I could bring my gun in during the appointment....Verrrrrry Funny..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 I strive for awareness in my shooting and it usually means I am seeing everything and hearing a lot as well. It used to be distracting but with training I have refined my focus to the relevant inputs for the shooting. The left-eye image is one of those things I see but like the other things not related to the shooting even though I am aware I ignore! Sometimes however the left-eye image gets really strong (as happened to me during a match as well). I use to try the tape on the glasses trick but I was told that I may weaken rather than strengthen my left-eye. The doctor advises that if anything I should squint the left eye for the fraction of a second it takes to fire that shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 BTW, you should have seen the look on my optometrist's face when I asked if I could bring my gun in during the appointment....Verrrrrry Funny..... Bring along a business card. If you can read the tiny print at arm's length, you got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackdragon Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 I would bet that as you dry fire practice the size of the tape will get smaller. As Jerry Barnhart says in his videos, "I see double images, I have just learned which one to use". By the way I am a Left eye dominate right handed shooter it sure helps in the week hand stuff! Ivan SCS Vegas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 BTW, you should have seen the look on my optometrist's face when I asked if I could bring my gun in during the appointment....Verrrrrry Funny..... Bring along a business card. If you can read the tiny print at arm's length, you got it. Heck, my eye doc knows what I do for a hobby, and I bring my limited gun (slide on frame, no barrel) with me for my checkups. I do what BH does: dominant eye contact lens corrected to front sight/reading distance. Non dominant eye corrected to 20/20. I have driving glasses correcting the undercorrected eye back to 20/20 (plain plastic w/o correction in the other lens) and the same correction as an insert for my Bolle shields for scope work (or open dot sights). Remember, if you use a classic front sight focus, or the in between target and FS focus used by many action pistol shooters, the target's should be blurry anyway. BTW, my correction is about 7.00 and 8.5 diopters now. Thank goodness for contact lenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phara Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Kevin, Do you wear this combination of lenses every day or just for matches? I wear the same type of combination only reversed, so my dominant eyes sees distance and my non-dominant eye sees close up. I wear these all the time. I've been thinking of reversing this for limited shooting but I would hate to have to do this just for match days. Thanks, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 Paul: I wear the undercorrected lens in my dominant eye all the time: it's how I read w/o correction for my presbyopia. Some people, from what my eye doc says, can't do that, though. For one thing, I am very near sighted, which makes it possible to do this (if you have 20/20 distance vision, this won't work). Other folks apparently get nauseous or headachey if they try it. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnshapiro Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 I just got back from my eye doc. The puppy chewed up my glasses so I figured it was time. Anyway, he remarked that my vision has improved somewhat. I'm back to a little better than 20/20 for distance. Speculation is that the eye exersizes that I've been doing, coupled with 1000 rounds a week of practice has strengthened my eyes and improved my vision. He found that very interesting and is curious about further progress. Just throwing this out as part of the discussion. Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwmagnus Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 I've never learned the art of shooting with both eyes open. I acquire the target with both eyae open and close my weak eye as I bring my focus back to the front sight. Depending on the transition distance I may or may not open the weak eye for the next shot. My vision is 20/20 but have started wearing 1.25 power reading glasses. Recently I started practicing live fire with these reading glasses and the clarity of the sights are unreal! Downside is the targets are slightly out of focus (soft focus) which makes it easier to stay on the front sight (benefit). Also not being able to see bullet holes (disadvantage) at longer distances forces me to read the sights (benefit). Just wondering does anyone else fall into this situation, good long distance poor short distance vision where slightly magnified glasses provide sharper focus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosshooting Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 I prefer to shoot only with one eye open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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