frag316 Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 We're trying to start up multigun matches at my local USPSA club. Because of some sort of golliwog politics, the USPSA and shooting complex approved match director is primarily a cowboy action shooter. The club ran a "for fun" match over the weekend, which apparnetly went well (I was unable to attend), and included cowboy shooters. One of my friends is trying to get the club to run multigun matches there using either IMGA or USPSA multigun rules. However, based on a recent announcement, the MD apparently wants to continue to have the match open to cowboy action shooters and/or rimfire shooters. Anyone know if it's legal to run a sanctioned club-level match whilemallowing those groups to continue to participate? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClutchUSMC Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Thats the beauty of Outlaw rules. Do whatever you guys want and use IMGA or USPSA multigun rules if you want. IMGA exists on the internet only, it's been dead for years, so as long as you don't advertise it as a USPSA multigun match, then do whatever you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I might be missing the OP's point. Are you saying he wants to open USPSA or IMGA matches to Cowboy/Rimfire shooters? Or limit it to only Cowboy/Rimfire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Can you shoot a USPSA open gun at one of their CAS/SASS matches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 last year when I put on that outlaw 3 gun match, it was too much of a PITA to set up stages with just a total of 10 pistol shots each (since their six shooters have to be started out hammer down on an empty chamber). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theycallmeingot Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 trying to cater/include cowboy gear into a 3 gun match sounds like a nightmare, and a boring 3 gun match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJW Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I don't see why it's a problem---let the Cowboy shooters reload their pistols on the clock just like everybody else. And make sure to set a 120sec par time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actionshooter Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Just run outlaw rules and have a cowboy class. They will just be shooting against themselves anyway. Sounds like a good way to pick up some new shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClutchUSMC Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I am all for including everyone, but you cannot make 3gun shooters and cowboy shooters happy. Most CAS shooting is fast on huge targets. 20 rounds with the pistol or shotgun is going to leave them butthurt for days. Especially if its 4in knock down plates at the 15-25 yard range. They will also freak out when you tell them they are going to shoot a 8in flasher at 300yds. On the other hand 3gunners would hate coming to matches with 16in round pistol targets at 6ft. Or only shooting 4 rounds of shotgun, or every target only being in spitting distance and the total round count for the match being 50. You cannot make both groups happy, you have to decide if you're a 3gun match or a CAS match. From what I know CAS shooters could shoot 3gun, although not very well. I'm all for anyone shooting whatever they want as long as its done safely. However, I don't think I've ever heard of a CAS match that would let me show up and shoot my TO gear, even if they let me I don't think I would. I would say trying to do both is going to leave you with no shooters from either party at the match. I would love for there to be another 3gun match in driving distance, I even offered to help anyway I could for last years match. Sadly scheduling kept me from shooting it. Anybody got stage descriptions or a first hand account of this weekends match before we start bashing it to much? Just because the guy comes from the CAS world doesn't mean he couldn't run a good 3gun match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead-Head Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Other than USPSA multigun I don't know if there is truly any such thing as a "sanctioned" match. You got to have a sanctioning organization first, and there ain't one set of rules. Best part about 3-gun in my opinion. I would count myself lucky that there is a place to have a match and a MD to do the heavy lifting it takes to put one on. If he want to let folks shoot it with RF or SAS gear, so what. It is kinda his call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modoc Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Simple solution, Have the Cowboy guns be Wild Bunch Legal. 1911, Lever Action .40 cal or larger and an 1897 Winchester. I have done this at a couple of our side match days and the only down side was the rifle reloading. Depending on your range, it can be doable, I didn't give up much in accuracy until I hit 100+ yards with my 44 mag. I think that I shot the stage in about 170+/- seconds with a couple of mikes. Not as fast as a more modern rifle, but not as slow as a regular set of cowboy guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Kent, my official advice is to contact both the section coordinator, Dirk Root (aka furyalecto) and the area director, Kyle Farris ( aka flexmoney). Mose is a member here as well, so you can always PM the link to this thread. For those following along at home, there's way more back story wise to this. And that's all I got to say about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Well, the MD can pretty much set up any kind of match he wants, but if it's going to be a sanctioned match where the scores are being submitted to USPSA then the courses will have to conform to those rules and shooters will have to conform to the divisions they are shooting within. I don't see how it's possible to do it otherwise. OTOH, if it's a fun match, local match, outlaw match, call it what you will, then the MD can pretty much do anything he wants. If enough people don't like it, then get a group together and lobby to take it over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted July 9, 2012 Author Share Posted July 9, 2012 I did some asking around and have decided to drop the issue. If the club chooses to use the IMGA rules, then the cowboy guys would be shooting against one another, and I think the MD wants to let them limit their needed shots on paper to 1. If they use USPSA rules, they'd be shooting for no score. The Wild Bunch idea was one I hadn't considered, however--it wouldn't be terribly different from shooting it WWII style, to be honest (substituting a Garand for the lever action). I didn't attend the match, but a couple of guys said it was pretty fun. I wish I could have gone (I had a prior engagement), because I would like to have seen the setup. I agree with Clutch, it's hard to appease both camps. I've been to "multigun" matches where the cowboy guys played, and it took forever for them to get loaded and shooting and unloaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooting for M Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Simple solution, Have the Cowboy guns be Wild Bunch Legal. 1911, Lever Action .40 cal or larger and an 1897 Winchester. Not as fast as a more modern rifle, but not as slow as a regular set of cowboy guns. +1, Wild bunch would be the only way to run it. There is a cops v. cowboy match that is a lot of fun to shoot once a year, they do 6 stages, 3 cowboy type stages and three regular 3 gun type stages (80 yards max for rifle). Everyone only loads five in the pistol, everything is virginia count, all steel or simulated steel (cardboard cut/painted to the same size as the cowboy steel, .223 on thin steel targets at 10-20 yards severely limits the life of a steel target). All cowboy matches are 3 gun, well, really 4 gun matches, they are lots of fun, none of the shots are very challenging, it's all about speed more like steel challenge. If your club is going to be all about including everyone, let the cowboys design a couple stages and you design a couple stages. I just shot a Wounded Warrior Benifit match that had a Wild bunch category, they put cowboy steel at a closer distance on the long range stage, but everything else was the same. 300 yards with buckhorn sights on a 44 mag lever gun ain't for the weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sargenv Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 You could do multi-gun, long gun only.. our club has about 44 pistol only matches a year, everyone is tired of pistol, so when we do multi gun, it is generally shotgun/rifle. You can run AR's and modern shotguns against the lever/pump/side by side crowd.. if the pistol is the limiting factor, then don't use it.. Remember, model 92's in 38 and 44/45 hold 8-10 rounds per tube.. They don't generally reload, you can require them to shoot 1 shot per paper for every 2 you'd use in an AR.. there are creative ways to make it work out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 "all steel must fall to score" Oh, yeah, how does that work with .22's then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 ACTS in Tucson has allowed cowboy and other non competitive equipment before by cutting the round count in half and doubling the penalties for people in that division. Paper gets one hit, but the score or penalty for that hit is doubled. If its steel requiring one hit, it still gets one hit. For rimfire division we just call hits on falling steel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted July 9, 2012 Author Share Posted July 9, 2012 "all steel must fall to score" Oh, yeah, how does that work with .22's then? *Shrugs* I have video of my 11-year old son knocking down plates on a Bianchi rack with my M&P-15 22. And you wouldn't shoot a rimfire at something like a LaRue anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Poppers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
co-exprs Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Yeah, if its a means to an end (you getting regular multigun matches) let him introduce whatever classes he wants. As a match director, he's entitled. Cowboys, rimfire, whatever. It will honestly work itself out in short order. The main thing is to get the matches going. The guy I've been using to run matches (cuz I don't have the time) wanted to start a rimfire multigun match (I didn't understand it either either), until he attended a couple of real matches. Before he saw how it all worked he had lots of ideas, but after shooting matches first hand, he's given up on most of those ideas. I didn't even need to tell him what was a good idea or bad. He figured it out on his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted July 9, 2012 Author Share Posted July 9, 2012 Poppers? 54 yards minimum safe distance to steel for rifle, not a factor for the match location. And I'm reasonably sure they don't have rifle-rated steel anyway. Yeah, if its a means to an end (you getting regular multigun matches) let him introduce whatever classes he wants. As a match director, he's entitled. Cowboys, rimfire, whatever. It will honestly work itself out in short order. The main thing is to get the matches going. The guy I've been using to run matches (cuz I don't have the time) wanted to start a rimfire multigun match (I didn't understand it either either), until he attended a couple of real matches. Before he saw how it all worked he had lots of ideas, but after shooting matches first hand, he's given up on most of those ideas. I didn't even need to tell him what was a good idea or bad. He figured it out on his own. Well, I don't think this guy is going to get the hint--he's primarily a CAS shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Poppers? 54 yards minimum safe distance to steel for rifle, not a factor for the match location. And I'm reasonably sure they don't have rifle-rated steel anyway. Yeah, if its a means to an end (you getting regular multigun matches) let him introduce whatever classes he wants. As a match director, he's entitled. Cowboys, rimfire, whatever. It will honestly work itself out in short order. The main thing is to get the matches going. The guy I've been using to run matches (cuz I don't have the time) wanted to start a rimfire multigun match (I didn't understand it either either), until he attended a couple of real matches. Before he saw how it all worked he had lots of ideas, but after shooting matches first hand, he's given up on most of those ideas. I didn't even need to tell him what was a good idea or bad. He figured it out on his own. Well, I don't think this guy is going to get the hint--he's primarily a CAS shooter. No, silly! If you shoot a .22LR with either a handgun or a rile, how is it going to have enough gumption to knock a pepper popper over? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted July 9, 2012 Author Share Posted July 9, 2012 Poppers? 54 yards minimum safe distance to steel for rifle, not a factor for the match location. And I'm reasonably sure they don't have rifle-rated steel anyway. Yeah, if its a means to an end (you getting regular multigun matches) let him introduce whatever classes he wants. As a match director, he's entitled. Cowboys, rimfire, whatever. It will honestly work itself out in short order. The main thing is to get the matches going. The guy I've been using to run matches (cuz I don't have the time) wanted to start a rimfire multigun match (I didn't understand it either either), until he attended a couple of real matches. Before he saw how it all worked he had lots of ideas, but after shooting matches first hand, he's given up on most of those ideas. I didn't even need to tell him what was a good idea or bad. He figured it out on his own. Well, I don't think this guy is going to get the hint--he's primarily a CAS shooter. No, silly! If you shoot a .22LR with either a handgun or a rile, how is it going to have enough gumption to knock a pepper popper over? I understood that. My point was that there's no rifle rated steel at the range anyway, so it's out for that. As far as for handgun, I don't know how they did it. I would assume they listened for the *tink* and were fine with that. Maybe they painted the steel. I wasn't there, so I don't know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Poppers? 54 yards minimum safe distance to steel for rifle, not a factor for the match location. And I'm reasonably sure they don't have rifle-rated steel anyway. Yeah, if its a means to an end (you getting regular multigun matches) let him introduce whatever classes he wants. As a match director, he's entitled. Cowboys, rimfire, whatever. It will honestly work itself out in short order. The main thing is to get the matches going. The guy I've been using to run matches (cuz I don't have the time) wanted to start a rimfire multigun match (I didn't understand it either either), until he attended a couple of real matches. Before he saw how it all worked he had lots of ideas, but after shooting matches first hand, he's given up on most of those ideas. I didn't even need to tell him what was a good idea or bad. He figured it out on his own. Well, I don't think this guy is going to get the hint--he's primarily a CAS shooter. No, silly! If you shoot a .22LR with either a handgun or a rile, how is it going to have enough gumption to knock a pepper popper over? I've done it. You have to shoot the absolute highest point on the popper. Having it set lite helps a lot too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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