Table start, Accidental Discharge DQ question

[Poppa Bear]

I think a key element to this entire discussion is what is "Movement" and when does it end?

Seated start and seated first shot: Shooter goes to retrieve the gun and prior to lifting it off the table discharges a round. Has movement ended?

Seated start and standing first shot: Shooter goes to retrieve the gun and prior to lifting it off the table discharges a round. Has movement ended?

What is movement? The arms still picking the gun up? The feet still moving? The waist still flexing?

My take on all of these is that as long as the gun is still in the retrieval process rather than a target engagement process, movement is still taking place and a DQ under either:

10.5.10 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during movement in

accordance with Section 8.5.

8.5.1 Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement (see Appendix A3) must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the safety should be engaged.

The handgun must be pointed in a safe direction.

OR

10.4.6 A shot which occurs during movement, except while actually shooting

at targets.

IF, IF you are not in control of the gun your finger should not be on the trigger. A good example of this is rule:

10.4.2 A shot which strikes the ground within 10 feet of the competitor, except

when shooting at a paper target closer than 10 feet to the competitor.

This is usually a situation where the shooter has their finger inside the trigger guard immediately after the draw and hits the trigger while still bringing the gun up and in many cases the support hand probably still has not made contact with the grip.

This is an issue that is pretty black and white during the first couple of seconds of a match prior to the first target being engaged. After that first target it becomes a lot grayer because they have demonstrated that they are in control of the gun.

As an RO I will give a further example:

First target is at a 45 degree angle and 12 feet away from the start position. Anything short of hitting within 4 to 5 feet of the shooter I would probably let slide. How do you differentiate between an AD and an early shot meant to engage the target? This is a case where the shooter is literally aiming at the ground because of target placement.

First target is 30 feet away and the shot hits around 8 to 12 feet away. I will be yelling STOP and if it is within 10 feet it is over for the shooter. More than 10 feet, it is the shooters lucky day and they had better put more effort into keeping their finger out of the trigger guard until they have brought the gun into alignment with the target. This is a case where the gun is almost parallel to the ground so their finger should not be even close to the trigger while the gun is still on its way up to the target.

Arm movement has been virtually completed in the first case, and has a long way to go in the second.

[GrumpyOne]

The slide did not cycle to eject the brass. It did not spin.

. I would say your correct in your assumption it hit a barrel or something in that case. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If it stayed put either a bullet didnt come out or something absorbed the energy. In any case looks like your fine with the DQ so live, learn and keep the bugger hook off of the bang button until your ready.

These, regardless of what others have to say, are the words of wisdom.

[Carmoney]

What is movement? The arms still picking the gun up? The feet still moving? The waist still flexing?

My take on all of these is that as long as the gun is still in the retrieval process rather than a target engagement process, movement is still taking place and a DQ...

Appendix A3 defines the word MOVEMENT as follows:

"Taking more than one step in any direction, or changing body position (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.)"

So while your opinion may be a perfectly valid personal point of view, it would not be supported by the current rule book. Under the current USPSA rules, retrieval of the gun is not--in and of itself--movement.

[Skydiver]

For those who like the wide latitude that 10.5 gives, consider that this is the same rule that is used by our IPSC brethren to classify the act of pushing open a port with the muzzle of your gun "unsafe gun handling".

I'm glad that the way NROI trains is it's RO's to look for specific rules first, and then only go for 10.5 as a last resort.

[rgkeller]

To satisfy the legions who disagree with the applicability of 10.5, the rules should be changed to include "discharge of a firearm while retrieving firearm from a prop" or other such words to section 10.4.

When is the next revision of the rules due?

[Poppa Bear]

What is movement? The arms still picking the gun up? The feet still moving? The waist still flexing?

My take on all of these is that as long as the gun is still in the retrieval process rather than a target engagement process, movement is still taking place and a DQ...

Appendix A3 defines the word MOVEMENT as follows:

"Taking more than one step in any direction, or changing body position (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.)"

So while your opinion may be a perfectly valid personal point of view, it would not be supported by the current rule book. Under the current USPSA rules, retrieval of the gun is not--in and of itself--movement.

I would agree that in and of itself retrieval is not movement, BUT the average retrieval process is part of a multi-tasking operation. Whether it is a holstered start or an off body start, there is movement involved. The typical shooter is not going to come to a fully erect position and cease all movement other than their arms prior to retrieving the gun.

The holstered start is clearly governed by 10.4.2. The 10 foot requirement is an arbitrary distance that the BOD agreed on to differentiate between a safe shot hitting the ground and an unsafe shot hitting the ground.

How about the off body start? Whether the start is seated and retrieve from table, or running up to a table/barrel the shooter is generally going to be retrieving the gun while standing/moving into their firing stance. They are not going to be stationary with their body locked into position as they reach out to pick up the gun. If the gun goes bang a split second after their hand grabs it either 10.4.6 or 10.5.10 should come into play.

[remoandiris]

I would agree that in and of itself retrieval is not movement, BUT the average retrieval process is part of a multi-tasking operation. Whether it is a holstered start or an off body start, there is movement involved. The typical shooter is not going to come to a fully erect position and cease all movement other than their arms prior to retrieving the gun.

The holstered start is clearly governed by 10.4.2. The 10 foot requirement is an arbitrary distance that the BOD agreed on to differentiate between a safe shot hitting the ground and an unsafe shot hitting the ground.

How about the off body start? Whether the start is seated and retrieve from table, or running up to a table/barrel the shooter is generally going to be retrieving the gun while standing/moving into their firing stance. They are not going to be stationary with their body locked into position as they reach out to pick up the gun. If the gun goes bang a split second after their hand grabs it either 10.4.6 or 10.5.10 should come into play.

Your premise is only valid if such movement meets the requirements of the current edition of the USPSA rulebook. Otherwise, it isn't movement as defined by USPSA;

From Appendix A3

Movement-Taking more than one step in any direction, or changing body position (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.)

[aztecdriver]

To satisfy the legions who disagree with the applicability of 10.5, the rules should be changed to include "discharge of a firearm while retrieving firearm from a prop" or other such words to section 10.4.

When is the next revision of the rules due?

I disagree. While I'm for clarity in the rules, I'm also for not carrying a phone book around the range. When does retrieving stop? If there is a 3 foot wide open target on the 45 from the barrel, I could conceivably setup the gun so I could grab the gun off the barrel, pick it straight up and rip two rounds off while going to my first position, without looking. When am I done retrieving and now able to fire? With the 10.5 argument, I agree we have a rule that we can use when we have "pornography" - I can't describe it but I know when I see it.

I'm still listening to the discussion - I just don't want to have 10.4.100 of examples of ADs.

[rgkeller]

Well, you could carry the rule in digital form on your iPhone. That would not be heavy.

[aztecdriver]

Well, you could carry the rule in digital form on your iPhone. That would not be heavy.

Lol - I already do that... I still don't agree

[Poppa Bear]

Part of the problem with writing a specif rule to deal with this situation is how often does it happen? A 10.4.3/10.4.1 AD while loading, unloading, or reloading? Fairly common just because of the number of repetitions every month around the country. A 10.4.2 AD into the ground within 10 feet of the shooter? Not quite as common, but still happens frequently when you consider the number of "Gun loaded and holstered" stage starts. AD during a "Gun loaded and on table/barrel" start? Not very common. It might be a regional thing but I see very few loaded off body starts. It is usually "Gun unloaded on table/barrel" rather than "Loaded gun on...."

You have an AD while retrieving the loaded gun from the table and most times some related movement on your part will allow a DQ under 10.4 or 10.5. It is like porn, hard to define but I know it when I see it.

[sharps4070ss]

What is movement? The arms still picking the gun up? The feet still moving? The waist still flexing?

My take on all of these is that as long as the gun is still in the retrieval process rather than a target engagement process, movement is still taking place and a DQ...

Appendix A3 defines the word MOVEMENT as follows:

"Taking more than one step in any direction, or changing body position (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.)"

So while your opinion may be a perfectly valid personal point of view, it would not be supported by the current rule book. Under the current USPSA rules, retrieval of the gun is not--in and of itself--movement.

I think the key point to Appendix A3 is "changing BODY position"

Retrieving the firearm in this case does not fit with the definition of "movement" according to the rule book.

Besides, even if the situation fit the definition of movement, it wouldn't have been a DQ-able offense since a person could claim that they were shooting at a target. (The "I meant to do it" defense)

To my mind, the only rule that would make sure a shooter (who just had an unsafe moment, but is not admitting to it), is going home early is 10.5

[Nik Habicht]

Well, you could carry the rule in digital form on your iPhone. That would not be heavy.

True, but the highlighter on the screen makes it a bitch to use......

[Skydiver]

Forgive me, if you've seen a version of this post before, but I like citing this as example: In the classifier CM 99-21 Mini-Mart: The shooter stands directly in front of the shelf so that he doesn't have to move. If after the start signal, the shooter grabs his gun under the shelf and lets a shot loose that hits T1 while the gun is still under the shelf, are you also going to DQ for unsafe gun handling (10.5) ? Would you do the same if he fired 2 shots and both hit T1, or T1 and the no-shoot? How about the back berm in line with T1? Shots over the berm?

If the shot went over the berm, or hit the ground less than 11 feet away, no question about it I would call an immediate stop and DQ for an AD under 10.4.

For the other shots that hit targets or within the vicinity of targets, since I can't see the finger in the trigger guard while his hand is in the shelf, I can only deduce that there was finger there because of shot(s) fired, but I can't call "Stop" because I didn't see it. Even if I did see the finger in the trigger guard, I don't think that retrieving the gun in this situation can be considered movement because the shooter did not take a step, nor did he change body positions (from sitting to standing, etc.). So no DQ for 10.5.10.

Like others have posted on this thread, I would probably depend on a "oh-shit" look on the shooters body language. If they are surprised then I'll stop them, and unwillingly issue a DQ under 10.5. If they are cool customers and act like they meant to do it, then I'll very likely let them keep going without saying anything. I'll even give them style points if they continue to shoot the other targets from under the counter.

[Carmoney]

Like others have posted on this thread, I would probably depend on a "oh-shit" look on the shooters body language. If they are surprised then I'll stop them, and unwillingly issue a DQ under 10.5.

I understand what you're saying--I really do. But certainly we should not be making DQ decisions based on subjective interpretations of a competitor's facial expression or other physical reaction. Once we start down the road of guessing as to the shooter's intention, we might as well throw the whole rulebook out the window.

This thread is a great reminder of how important it is that major match organizers recruit ROs who are seasoned and well-trained. It appears there are a lot of well-intentioned people out there prepared to ignore the rule book and issue DQs based on their seat-of-the-pants feelings.

[Jim Norman]

Movement-Taking more than one step in any direction, or changing body position (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.)

e.g. As in an EXAMPLE OF, not as in THIS IS IT< THE ONLY WAY IT CAN BE CALLED.

Can you retrieve your gun with out moving your body? I seriously doubt it unless you are a true physic!

Seriously I have to go with the "I just crapped my pants" look of astonishment that we all know means that the gun went off when the shooter was in no way prepared for it. If he is in control enough not to have 'the look' and he goes on without a pause, then he is OK as he may have been early, but he wasn't unsafe,b barring other infractions at the time of discharge. If on the other hand he has the look stops, shakes, does a when am I still here sort of dance, then we all know that it was an unsafe situation.

Like so many have said, I know it when I see it. What we do have to guard against and it is as difficult here as anywhere is a zealot. 99.999% of our ROs will do this right, there area probably a few that will be of the Range Nazi type that will get it wrong, thankfully it is only a very few.

We jokingly (to a point) will tell a shooter, 'Don't scare the RO.' If what you just did makes the RO want to check his drawers, then you are more than likely over the line.

[Poppa Bear]

10.4.2 was put into the rule books for a reason:

10.4.2 A shot which strikes the ground within 10 feet of the competitor, except

when shooting at a paper target closer than 10 feet to the competitor.

People were putting their fingers on the trigger while drawing the gun and discharging a round into the ground at their feet. The loaded table/barrel start is not likely to use that rule because the gun is already parallel to the ground and the bullet is not likely to hit it if the competitor hits the trigger while grabbing the gun. I think my major criteria would be: "Was the gun still on the prop when it discharged, or is it in the competitors hands? The first suggests they did not have control of the gun, the second suggests they did.

[remoandiris]

Movement-Taking more than one step in any direction, or changing body position (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.)

e.g. As in an EXAMPLE OF, not as in THIS IS IT< THE ONLY WAY IT CAN BE CALLED.

IMO, you are wrong with respect to the first part of the definition. It is NOT an example...it is the USPSA definition of movement; taking more than one step in any direction. The second part of the definition includes examples. If a person is seated or standing and moves to prone, the finger must be outside of the trigger guard. If it is not, they can be stopped and DQ'd for moving with the finger in the trigger guard.

If I am standing at a table, hands relaxed gun laying on table, my reaching for the gun is NOT movement unless I take a step. Looking at the second part of the definition, I am NOT changing body position either. The act of reaching for the gun is NOT movement in accordance with the USPSA rulebook.

Edited June 29, 2012 by remoandiris

[rgkeller]

10.4.2 was put into the rule books for a reason:

10.4.2 A shot which strikes the ground within 10 feet of the competitor, except

when shooting at a paper target closer than 10 feet to the competitor.

People were putting their fingers on the trigger while drawing the gun and discharging a round into the ground at their feet. The loaded table/barrel start is not likely to use that rule because the gun is already parallel to the ground and the bullet is not likely to hit it if the competitor hits the trigger while grabbing the gun. I think my major criteria would be: "Was the gun still on the prop when it discharged, or is it in the competitors hands? The first suggests they did not have control of the gun, the second suggests they did.

Exactly

[Jim Norman]

Movement-Taking more than one step in any direction, or changing body position (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.)

e.g. As in an EXAMPLE OF, not as in THIS IS IT< THE ONLY WAY IT CAN BE CALLED.

IMO, you are wrong with respect to the first part of the definition. It is NOT an example...it is the USPSA definition of movement; taking more than one step in any direction. The second part of the definition includes examples. If a person is seated or standing and moves to prone, the finger must be outside of the trigger guard. If it is not, they can be stopped and DQ'd for moving with the finger in the trigger guard.

If I am standing at a table, hands relaxed gun laying on table, my reaching for the gun is NOT movement unless I take a step. Looking at the second part of the definition, I am NOT changing body position either. The act of reaching for the gun is NOT movement in accordance with the USPSA rulebook.

If you pick up your gun and it goes bang and you have the 'O damn, I just crapped in my pants' look on your face, we just might have to have the RM come over. I will issue you a DQ. You did have to move to grab the gun, you were not actively engaging a target when it went bang. You were picking up your gun. Movement is involved, try picking up your gun without moving.

The DQ will be under 10.5 USGH, not 10.4 movement during... You were not in control as evidenced by the body language that occurred after the bang. Really not that hard. Also not all that common, thankfully.

Edited June 29, 2012 by Jim Norman

[remoandiris]

Movement-Taking more than one step in any direction, or changing body position (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.)

e.g. As in an EXAMPLE OF, not as in THIS IS IT< THE ONLY WAY IT CAN BE CALLED.

IMO, you are wrong with respect to the first part of the definition. It is NOT an example...it is the USPSA definition of movement; taking more than one step in any direction. The second part of the definition includes examples. If a person is seated or standing and moves to prone, the finger must be outside of the trigger guard. If it is not, they can be stopped and DQ'd for moving with the finger in the trigger guard.

If I am standing at a table, hands relaxed gun laying on table, my reaching for the gun is NOT movement unless I take a step. Looking at the second part of the definition, I am NOT changing body position either. The act of reaching for the gun is NOT movement in accordance with the USPSA rulebook.

If you pick up your gun and it goes bang and you have the 'O damn, I just crapped in my pants' look on your face, we just might have to have the RM come over. I will issue you a DQ. You did have to move to grab the gun, you were not actively engaging a target when it went bang. You were picking up your gun. Movement is involved, try picking up your gun without moving.

The DQ will be under 10.5 USGH, not 10.4 movement during... You were not in control as evidenced by the body language that occurred after the bang. Really not that hard. Also not all that common, thankfully.

Since when are ROs trained in reading body language? At the time I put a deliberate shot down range I pinched a nerve in my neck. And according to the USPSA definition of movement, I did not move, unless you want to pick and choose what definitions you agree with. BTW, how can you see my face unless you're standing in front of me?

There are several threads in this forum where people argue for and against following the written rules. I understand what you're saying, and if it works for you, fine. It doesn't work for me.

[twodownzero]

This thread is a great reminder of how important it is that major match organizers recruit ROs who are seasoned and well-trained. It appears there are a lot of well-intentioned people out there prepared to ignore the rule book and issue DQs based on their seat-of-the-pants feelings.

I couldn't agree more.

And in light of the "interpretive" methods used to analyze rule issues in this thread and in general, I think that it's about time that we enact a rule that says something to the effect that, "Whenever possible, the rules must be interpreted by their plain meaning."

Interpretive methods purporting to enforce the "spirit" of the rules or based on the supposed "intent" of their drafters lead down an analytical path that is just generally negative for the rule book in general. There are some repeat offenders on this forum that might as well remain nameless, but I would submit that in the majority of cases, if a rule analysis begins with any discussion of the intent of the rules, what follows is someone's normative opinion on what the rule should be, rather than enforcing what it says.

I understand that hardly any RO has been to law school or trained in a process that involves analyzing text and making a judgment purely based on that which follows. In light of that, a rule that requires the use of plain meaning would eliminate many of the rule disputes and conflicts that we have. It would also prevent anyone, including Amidon, from publishing a ruling that was clearly contrary to the text of the rules, and encourage the maintenance of a rule book that provided the maximum guidance to range officials and competitors alike.

This is probably the topic of another thread, but it's as applicable to this thread as it is to the many others in which the method of analysis is as critical as the actual rule contested in determining the proper outcome.

[98sr20ve]

This thread is a great reminder of how important it is that major match organizers recruit ROs who are seasoned and well-trained. It appears there are a lot of well-intentioned people out there prepared to ignore the rule book and issue DQs based on their seat-of-the-pants feelings.

The rule book is not 100% literal. AD is well defined in the book, unsafe gun handling is not. That is the crux of this entire conversation. To imply "unsafe gun handling" is easily defined is contrary to the rule book. Why do you think they said the section does not cover ever thing that could be defined as "unsafe gun handling".

[Gary Stevens]

Movement-Taking more than one step in any direction, or changing body position (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.)

e.g. As in an EXAMPLE OF, not as in THIS IS IT< THE ONLY WAY IT CAN BE CALLED.

IMO, you are wrong with respect to the first part of the definition. It is NOT an example...it is the USPSA definition of movement; taking more than one step in any direction. The second part of the definition includes examples. If a person is seated or standing and moves to prone, the finger must be outside of the trigger guard. If it is not, they can be stopped and DQ'd for moving with the finger in the trigger guard.

If I am standing at a table, hands relaxed gun laying on table, my reaching for the gun is NOT movement unless I take a step. Looking at the second part of the definition, I am NOT changing body position either. The act of reaching for the gun is NOT movement in accordance with the USPSA rulebook.

If you pick up your gun and it goes bang and you have the 'O damn, I just crapped in my pants' look on your face, we just might have to have the RM come over. I will issue you a DQ. You did have to move to grab the gun, you were not actively engaging a target when it went bang. You were picking up your gun. Movement is involved, try picking up your gun without moving.

The DQ will be under 10.5 USGH, not 10.4 movement during... You were not in control as evidenced by the body language that occurred after the bang. Really not that hard. Also not all that common, thankfully.

Since when are ROs trained in reading body language? At the time I put a deliberate shot down range I pinched a nerve in my neck. And according to the USPSA definition of movement, I did not move, unless you want to pick and choose what definitions you agree with. BTW, how can you see my face unless you're standing in front of me?

There are several threads in this forum where people argue for and against following the written rules. I understand what you're saying, and if it works for you, fine. It doesn't work for me.

I am trained in it and have the certificate (somewhere) to prove it. You asked:)

[remoandiris]

Since when are ROs trained in reading body language?

I am trained in it and have the certificate (somewhere) to prove it. You asked:)

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