Do shotgun stages level the playing field?

[chevyoneton]

My background; approximately one year of USPSA (Production, D) and exactly three, 3-Gun matches. I usually come in slightly farther back than the middle of the pack in USPSA matches. I am OK with that given my age and physical condition (tactically padded) as I am getting better and nobody is having any more fun than me. Anyway, I have a theory that Shotgun Stages in 3-Gun are a great leveler of the playing field. This is due to the time spent reloading negating the advantage the really fast movers have. To present some very limited evidence, at the match last weekend my finishes on the four pistol, rifle, and pistol/rifle stages were 21st to 24th out of 32 competitors. My finishes on the shotgun and shotgun/pistol stages were 17th and 19th. I would have been even higher than 19th on that stage but I had to clear a stovepipe. My overall match finish was 22rd. I have practiced exactly once, last Wednesday evening, loading shotgun shells weak hand from caddies. I am comfortable shooting a shotgun but I think my loading had the most to do with my higher finishes. Even the little I did paid dividends on match day. I only had one bobble, the last shell out of three on the last array (plate rack), and I just dropped it and ended up not needing it anyway (although I did shoot dry). Anyway, for me I think the few bucks I spent on dummy shells was VERY well spent, in addition to giving my 9 year a chuckle; Daddy, they say Dummy! Practicing reloads also gives me an opportunity to get the family involved. I had the aforementioned 9 year old following me around the house as I walked and reloaded. She was timing me with the timer function on her tablet computer! We dont need to discuss the actual times………..

Edited May 30, 2012 by chevyoneton

[pjb45]

As a novice in the 3Gun arena, but with many friends in the sport, my opinion is shotgun loading is not a leveler but it can define the winner.

It is probably the only part of the match in which reloading is a critical success factor rather than shooting skill.

Watch out for Firebird Precision's mag shotguns. They will rule the match that has multiple shotgun reloading requirements.

[Alaskapopo]

As a novice in the 3Gun arena, but with many friends in the sport, my opinion is shotgun loading is not a leveler but it can define the winner.

It is probably the only part of the match in which reloading is a critical success factor rather than shooting skill.

Watch out for Firebird Precision's mag shotguns. They will rule the match that has multiple shotgun reloading requirements.

Not in Tactical and Limited and my R&R Saiga with a 20 round mag pretty much can rule a shotgun course of fire if I do my part in open.

Pat

[bikerburgess]

I think what you see on shotgun heavy stages is it how quickly you can get the shells into the gun that makes the biggest difference, shooting slow of fast makes a much smaller difference. Even a little loading practice will make a big difference in your stage placement.

Mike

[kellyn]

It completely depends on how the match is setup. Some have little long range rifle, some have a lot. Some have little pistol shooting, some have a lot. Some have easy pistol shooting, some have hard pistol shooting. Some have big shotgun stages with lots of loading. Some have hard slug shots. Some have lots of aerial targets.

Matches are not won by any one skill but they can be lost by being a weak shotgun loader or poor long range rifle shooter. Whatever you are weak at will eventually come to haunt you.

[ClutchUSMC]

Shotgun reloading will help you see the biggest gains on the scoreboard at most matches. I'm a big guy too, and don't move as fast as some of the other 3gunners. But I normally beat those guys on stages with lots of shotgun, regardless of the distance.

If you are 2 sec faster than a guy loading 8, and you do that 3 times in a stage you just made up 6 sec. Now if he has a fumble in there and you don't thats another 4-6 sec. Shotgun loading is the one thing I practice the most. Followed by pistol shooting, and then rifle shooting. Actually "shooting" drills with the shotgun are limited to aerials and slugs.

[MarkCO]

While most of the guys at the top will whomp the average shooters with any gun (they do this thing called practice I guess), there are some really good rifle and pistol shooters whose shotgun game is what is holding them out of higher finishes. Like Kelley kind of implied, there are some matches where a good (not great) pistol or rifle shooter can slide by and finish very well based on very good shotgun skills, but still rare.

Most of the potential or first time 3 gunners here locally are petrified of the shotgun, and their scores reflect such. Even accomplished clay sports shooters can do pretty well until it comes time to reload, then the wheels come off. Matches that have say half the stages or more where loading 8 or more shotgun shells is necessary, the shotgun loaders start to get some advantage for their work on that platform.

This game has so many skills that need to be worked on, and that is part of the draw to many. The various flavors of the matches also tend to slightly reward a skill or two more than others, and some totally negate or leave out other aspects of the game. But what we see, the top guys are almost always the top guys. Most 3 gunners are well-rounded shooters...The top 3 gunners are very skilled shooters on all three platforms and the various challenges presented in the unique courses of fire.

So, to the OP, feel good that you do well in shotgun because that is the worst part of most 3 gunners game.

Edited May 29, 2012 by MarkCO

[outerlimits]

As a novice in the 3Gun arena, but with many friends in the sport, my opinion is shotgun loading is not a leveler but it can define the winner.

It is probably the only part of the match in which reloading is a critical success factor rather than shooting skill.

Watch out for Firebird Precision's mag shotguns. They will rule the match that has multiple shotgun reloading requirements.

Not in Tactical and Limited and my R&R Saiga with a 20 round mag pretty much can rule a shotgun course of fire if I do my part in open.

Pat

"rule?". Guess i'll sell my old tube gun

[Alaskapopo]

As a novice in the 3Gun arena, but with many friends in the sport, my opinion is shotgun loading is not a leveler but it can define the winner.

It is probably the only part of the match in which reloading is a critical success factor rather than shooting skill.

Watch out for Firebird Precision's mag shotguns. They will rule the match that has multiple shotgun reloading requirements.

Not in Tactical and Limited and my R&R Saiga with a 20 round mag pretty much can rule a shotgun course of fire if I do my part in open.

Pat

"rule?". Guess i'll sell my old tube gun

I love my R&R Saiga. It helped me to get 6th place on a all shotgun stage at the Texas Multi Gun match. 9x23 guy got 4th on that stage using my Saiga out of 52 open shooters. The shotgun is what gave us a lot of stage points. Its almost like cheating when shooting against tube gunners.

Just got done with a match this last weekend and 9x23 guy managed to beat all the tube guns and xrails with my R&R getting 1st in open and overall match winner. I came in 4th.

On this stage had a brain fart and did not check to make sure the mags were both fully loaded but still had a ok stage time.

I seriously believe tube guns are on the way out the door in open. A good magazine gun can make a novice shooter competative with some of the best shooters using tube guns.

Edited May 29, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[MarkCO]

I seriously believe tube guns are on the way out.

Tube gun, set up for Open with ability to load 24 more rounds...$1500.

Adkal set up for Open with ability to load 30 more rounds...$2700.

Saiga set up for Open with ability to load 30 more rounds...$3700.

Not seeing it, especially with the stages I have seen so far this year.

[Alaskapopo]

I seriously believe tube guns are on the way out.

Tube gun, set up for Open with ability to load 24 more rounds...$1500.

Adkal set up for Open with ability to load 30 more rounds...$2700.

Saiga set up for Open with ability to load 30 more rounds...$3700.

Not seeing it, especially with the stages I have seen so far this year.

Tube guns are cheaper but I am not talking about cost. I am talking about what is best. The only way to counter this is when stage designers neuter courses of fire by making them all short round count but is that what we really want the sport to do, hold technology back? Open is expensive. The pistols can easily cost upwards of 4k. The rifles easily can cost that with good optics. Its the price of doing buisness.

pat

Edited May 29, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[MarkCO]

Tube guns are cheaper but I am not talking about cost. I am talking about what is best. The only way to counter this is when stage designers neuter courses of fire by making them all short round count but is that what we really want the sport to do, hold technology back?

pat

I'd venture to say that less that 10% of all three gun competitors use what they would consider "best", most for monetary reasons, some for resistance to change, some becasue they run the old stuff pretty good...

I am not in favor of holding anything back...but then I am only one competitor/MD/RM/Innovator/Consumer/fan.

[Alaskapopo]

Tube guns are cheaper but I am not talking about cost. I am talking about what is best. The only way to counter this is when stage designers neuter courses of fire by making them all short round count but is that what we really want the sport to do, hold technology back?

pat

I'd venture to say that less that 10% of all three gun competitors use what they would consider "best", most for monetary reasons, some for resistance to change, some becasue they run the old stuff pretty good...

I am not in favor of holding anything back...but then I am only one competitor/MD/RM/Innovator/Consumer/fan.

I understand money is an issue. I am the kind of guy who will go broke buying a new gun but will not get new shoes even when their are holes worn in the tops of them or so I have been told.

Pat

Edited May 30, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[ClutchUSMC]

Tube guns are cheaper but I am not talking about cost. I am talking about what is best. The only way to counter this is when stage designers neuter courses of fire by making them all short round count but is that what we really want the sport to do, hold technology back?

pat

I'd venture to say that less that 10% of all three gun competitors use what they would consider "best", most for monetary reasons, some for resistance to change, some becasue they run the old stuff pretty good...

I am not in favor of holding anything back...but then I am only one competitor/MD/RM/Innovator/Consumer/fan.

+1

Mark's system is the reason I like shotgun stages instead of dread them like I used too!

[MarkCO]

I understand money is an issue. I am the kind of guy who will go broke buying a new gun but will not get new shoes even when their are holes worn in the tops of them or so I have been told.

Pat

Pat, have you tried walking on the bottom uf your shoes instead of the tops? I hear they work better that way. (Silly Open shooters)

[outerlimits]

As a novice in the 3Gun arena, but with many friends in the sport, my opinion is shotgun loading is not a leveler but it can define the winner.

It is probably the only part of the match in which reloading is a critical success factor rather than shooting skill.

Watch out for Firebird Precision's mag shotguns. They will rule the match that has multiple shotgun reloading requirements.

Not in Tactical and Limited and my R&R Saiga with a 20 round mag pretty much can rule a shotgun course of fire if I do my part in open.

Pat

"rule?". Guess i'll sell my old tube gun

I love my R&R Saiga. It helped me to get 6th place on a all shotgun stage at the Texas Multi Gun match. 9x23 guy got 4th on that stage using my Saiga out of 52 open shooters. The shotgun is what gave us a lot of stage points. Its almost like cheating when shooting against tube gunners.

Just got done with a match this last weekend and 9x23 guy managed to beat all the tube guns and xrails with my R&R getting 1st in open and overall match winner. I came in 4th.

On this stage had a brain fart and did not check to make sure the mags were both fully loaded but still had a ok stage time.

I seriously believe tube guns are on the way out the door in open. A good magazine gun can make a novice shooter competative with some of the best shooters using tube guns.

OK pat, i'll take the challenge-next 3 gun match we're both at, you're on.

Edited May 30, 2012 by outerlimits

[kellyn]

One day Alaskapopo will win a major 3 gun match and everyone will have to buy mag fed shotguns and Swarovski 1-6Xs. Until then, tubers and even lowly Burris scopes are ok.

Look these are 3 gun matches, so you have to be good with all 3 guns. If you want to do well at a major or even minor 3 gun match, you will have to master both shooting and loading the shotgun, no matter what division you shoot in. I find that a lot of 3 gunners who come from SOLELY a USPSA pistol background struggle with shotgun loading and LR rifle shooting. Many who come from a tactical background struggle with the same things, plus they can't shoot their pistols fast. so if you want to be good then practice, then practice some more. Since most 3 gunners don't start out with shotguns as their favored weapon, it is often the most unfamiliar and hence their weakest of the 3.

One similarity between most good 3 gunners is that they all like the variation and like to compete in a wide range of events.

[boomfab]

I think people credit shotgun loading too much. It seems to be a bit of a crutch for some to say that shotgun use in tac optics is just a "reloading contest" in an attempt to somehow discredit it.

On shotgun stages, look at the top shooter's transitions, near 100% first round hit percentage, and efficient movements. That's where the time is.

Super fast shotgun loading is a glamorous skill, kinda like a 0.50 second draw. It's a great tool to have but won't win a stage on its own. You don't need to be able to load 8 rounds in 4 seconds to win a shotgun stage.

[pjb45]

I never wanted to appear as if I am discounting or discrediting anyone's skill, especially when it comes to shotgun reloading. That is simply not the case or point I was making.

IMO, tube shotgun reloading is the skill that most need to improve.

Having watch several Saiga Shotgun shooters on my squad at SMM3G, it seemed (purely observational) that at least one Saiga per stage that had a shotgun course on it had a mag/feeding problem. I was impressed with the quickness of their dropping a mag ,inserting a new one and racking their slide.

As for my pitiful skill at loading shotguns, it was apparent to me, that they could load 10-15 rounds faster than I could load three rounds in my awesome Benelli.

Top shooters are the exception not the norm, so only looking to them to prove a point is meaningless. Look at the shooters in the first standard deviation and determine if a mag loaded shotgun v. tube loaded on a stage with more than 12 shots would have improved their scores.

I believe Jim Lambert at Firebird Precision was ahead of the curve on Saiga Shotguns and his new shotgun MKA 1919 has the potential to rule.

[carbon9]

Take the time to learn all the variables with your shotgun. Poor planning is the biggest leveler of all. I helped run stage 6 at SMM3G this year, the all buckshot stage. Most shooters, even some top shooters didn't plan for the extra length 00buck shells usually have. Anybody shooting an SLP without an extension just dropped from 8+1 capacity to 7+1, Some of the FN team were most interesting to watch at the pre-loading table which of course is after your walk through and your game plan is set. Same thing for just about anybody who's gun barely held 8+1 of birdshot. This can change your plan radically. The extra shell length killed most of the Saigas, I think I only saw 3 Saigas run without a malf, a good portion ran it as bolt actions (actually, it was very painful). R&Rs were on both sides. The tube fed open guns ran it no problem. The two Akdals I saw ran it fine, we will see how they do long term. The X-rails ran pretty well for the most part although initial loading took quite a bit of massaging due to the extra shell length.

[Alaskapopo]

One day Alaskapopo will win a major 3 gun match and everyone will have to buy mag fed shotguns and Swarovski 1-6Xs. Until then, tubers and even lowly Burris scopes are ok.

Look these are 3 gun matches, so you have to be good with all 3 guns. If you want to do well at a major or even minor 3 gun match, you will have to master both shooting and loading the shotgun, no matter what division you shoot in. I find that a lot of 3 gunners who come from SOLELY a USPSA pistol background struggle with shotgun loading and LR rifle shooting. Many who come from a tactical background struggle with the same things, plus they can't shoot their pistols fast. so if you want to be good then practice, then practice some more. Since most 3 gunners don't start out with shotguns as their favored weapon, it is often the most unfamiliar and hence their weakest of the 3.

One similarity between most good 3 gunners is that they all like the variation and like to compete in a wide range of events.

With respect in open with a 20 round mag on a Saiga I seldom have to reload at all. When i do its very easy. That is the great thing about mag fed shotguns they remove the reloading aspect of the game and allow you to win or lose by shooting fast not on reloading fast. So no I really don't have to master reloading the shotgun, just shooting it. Now in Tac optics and limited its obviously a different story. And yes I love my Swarovski as do many of the top pro shooters. Its a popular scope for a reason. Nothing wrong with wanting the best gear and getting it even if your not a top pro level shooter.

pat

Edited May 30, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[Alaskapopo]

Take the time to learn all the variables with your shotgun. Poor planning is the biggest leveler of all. I helped run stage 6 at SMM3G this year, the all buckshot stage. Most shooters, even some top shooters didn't plan for the extra length 00buck shells usually have. Anybody shooting an SLP without an extension just dropped from 8+1 capacity to 7+1, Some of the FN team were most interesting to watch at the pre-loading table which of course is after your walk through and your game plan is set. Same thing for just about anybody who's gun barely held 8+1 of birdshot. This can change your plan radically. The extra shell length killed most of the Saigas, I think I only saw 3 Saigas run without a malf, a good portion ran it as bolt actions (actually, it was very painful). R&Rs were on both sides. The tube fed open guns ran it no problem. The two Akdals I saw ran it fine, we will see how they do long term. The X-rails ran pretty well for the most part although initial loading took quite a bit of massaging due to the extra shell length.

My Saiga runs with Federal flight control 00 and Remington 8 pellet 00. As with anything testing your equipment before the match and planning is essential. On the X-rail its a viable solution but I have seen them choke in the sand as well. Nothing is perfect.

Pat

[Alaskapopo]

As a novice in the 3Gun arena, but with many friends in the sport, my opinion is shotgun loading is not a leveler but it can define the winner.

It is probably the only part of the match in which reloading is a critical success factor rather than shooting skill.

Watch out for Firebird Precision's mag shotguns. They will rule the match that has multiple shotgun reloading requirements.

Not in Tactical and Limited and my R&R Saiga with a 20 round mag pretty much can rule a shotgun course of fire if I do my part in open.

Pat

"rule?". Guess i'll sell my old tube gun

I love my R&R Saiga. It helped me to get 6th place on a all shotgun stage at the Texas Multi Gun match. 9x23 guy got 4th on that stage using my Saiga out of 52 open shooters. The shotgun is what gave us a lot of stage points. Its almost like cheating when shooting against tube gunners.

Just got done with a match this last weekend and 9x23 guy managed to beat all the tube guns and xrails with my R&R getting 1st in open and overall match winner. I came in 4th.

On this stage had a brain fart and did not check to make sure the mags were both fully loaded but still had a ok stage time.

I seriously believe tube guns are on the way out the door in open. A good magazine gun can make a novice shooter competative with some of the best shooters using tube guns.

OK pat, i'll take the challenge-next 3 gun match we're both at, you're on.

Sounds fine but I am talking about hardware your talking about software. (shooter vs equipment) My point is that the Saiga makes it easier to win in open vs a tube gun.

The next match I may attend is Ozarks if I can raise the funds by then if not Texas again next year.

[bullpup]

I think a lot of shotgunning is planning the stage and reloading and if you can do that it can level the field a bit. The shotgun is my favorite part of three gun. I always look forward to shooting all shotgun stages because I know it is the one thing that I will be successful at. I'm decent with the rifle, ok with the pistol but I think I'm pretty good with the shotgun. I don't have all of the results from all the matches I've attended because some of them don't break them down by stage, but I did look at results from 6 matches that I've attended in the last year and half. On the all shotgun stage that we have at one of the places I shoot I've finished in the top 25% all but one time and that was the first match I attended. The best three have been 2 out of 19, 6 out of 34, and 6 out of 27. These results are for all divisions. Now again these are local matches at one venue and obviously there is a lot variation in skill sets from other shooters. I do shoot at one other range but I've never seen stage break downs for me to compare. Now that the USPSA scoring program supports time+ hopefully I'll be able to compare in the future for these matches as well. For me I feel an advantage when I go to an all shotgun stage because I enjoy it. I plan for the stage and how I'm going to reload and it helps. Now I just need to work on the pistol and rifle. Oh and by the way, I shoot in limited and run a pump gun, so planning, loading and efficiency play a role. I will be getting a Mossberg JM 930 Pro in the near future though!

BP

[kurtm]

"I have a theory that Shotgun Stages in 3-Gun are a great leveler of the playing field. This is due to the time spent reloading negating the advantage the really fast movers have."

To make this a "true theory statement" all shooters would have about the same time on shotgun stages, which is hardly the case. Just look at Daniel's time on a shotgun only stage, or Taran's, or Keith's compaired to everyone else. They are usually WAY faster than most.

As for shotgun loading not being that big a skill as shooting speed, I would again disagree. I know several top shooters that shoot the shotgun so darn fast and accurately that it makes your head spin, but they aren't real fast at loading and they are NOT winning shotgun stages.

If you aren't pretty fast at shooting accurately and don't have a fast relaod the "playing field" is still pretty darn steep.