Grip Pressure

[SouthernYeti]

Lately I have been experimenting with how I apply pressure to the pistol. I have tried death gripping the gun, a neutral (handshake) grip, and what some call the 60%/40% or 70%/30% grip where you bear down with your support hand more than your shooting hand. Right now I am use a neutral grip where I squeeze equally with both hands with as much pressure as I would shake someone's hand. I find I am consistent with this grip, but I have noticed is that it is slightly more difficult to be dexterous with my trigger finger as opposed to the 70/30 grip.

I am curious what other shooters are using, and if they have tried multiple ways to apply pressure which do they prefer. I was also curious if anyone had insight into what the top shooters are using. I know there will probably be a good variety, but there has to be some common styles.

[Sin-ster]

Matt Mink advocates gripping the gun "hard"; since Voegel is the king of grip strength, I'm guessing he'd say the same thing.

The problem with this description is that it's subjective as all get out. We can talk all day about building the proper grip, but when it comes down to how much pressure to apply (and even with which hands, or specifically which PARTS of the hands), the conversation breaks down.

I find, for me, that a more firm grip is optimal. Not so much as to screw up the dexterity of my trigger finger or to cause the gun to tremble, but enough to eliminate the chances of the grip moving the gun before/as the shot breaks, and to ensure consistent sight tracking between shots. I also go for what Brian seems to advocate-- relatively equal grip between both hands. I'm pretty eloquent and a trained writer... and I can't even begin to verbalize what all is going on in my hands.

I can, however, describe what the sights look like when everything is just right. The shot breaks, the front post begins to lift, and then it seems to "short stroke" the standard recoil and just fall back perfectly into the same exact spot.

My guess is that the best answer is the least helpful-- you'll have to keep playing around and decide for yourself. More grip strength almost certainly helps-- your "handshake grip" now will be increased with focused training. Make sure the mechanics of your grip are correct, and play around with it.

[sroe3]

My experience with grip has led me to the 60/40. By gripping tighter with my weak hand my strong hand doesn't move the gun during trigger press. Sometimes when I'm struggling with a tough shot I'll consciously grip tighter with my weak hand to stabilize the gun better.

[lugnut]

I can, however, describe what the sights look like when everything is just right. The shot breaks, the front post begins to lift, and then it seems to "short stroke" the standard recoil and just fall back perfectly into the same exact spot.

My guess is that the best answer is the least helpful-- you'll have to keep playing around and decide for yourself. More grip strength almost certainly helps-- your "handshake grip" now will be increased with focused training. Make sure the mechanics of your grip are correct, and play around with it.

Damn it... after 6 years you'd think there would be some new tricks to shooting better... but in the end it's the simple fundamentals.... grip and trigger control... these F'ers aren't easy to perfect either!

[PrinC]

For me, I have to use the 60/40 grip most times with my G35. This gun has a 'kick' when shooting major. Its not a gun to be messed with. However, I guess to each his/her own depending on the weapon used.

[Lee B]

Grip:

in the Vogel video from Panteao, he uses a strong two hand grip; "In with both hands" torquing the pressure inwards. He doesn't really say what percentage support or dominant hand.

Something that isn't said though is: let's say he has 300lbs of max grip strength and I have 100lbs of max grip strength. Since the "death grip" doesn't work for any of us because of all the tension, we might use a 90% of our max grip pressure. So, if he's using 90% of max grip pressure, that's 270lbs of pressure; while mine would be 90lbs of pressure. Guess who is managing recoil better? If you work on grip strength, you should be able to manage recoil better.

Timing:

Matt Burkett's timing drills will show the pattern of your shots on paper and how the front sight is tracking. Do the drills and you'll notice which grip strength and follow through you need for the timing of that gun's setup (springs, etc) and the load that you're using. You will need to adjust relative pressure between support and dominant hands depending upon where the sight tracks and target pattern

-Lee

[167]

For me personally, it seems to be more important what I do with my arms than what I do with my hands. With my wrists locked and fingers wrapped around the pistol grip I rotate my left elbow up slightly and that leverages the meaty part of my left hand at the base of the thumb into the grip on the pistol. It applies a lot of pressure on the grip, giving my hand traction, but doesn't require a great deal of muscle tension. At least in my experience.

[Sin-ster]

Damn it... after 6 years you'd think there would be some new tricks to shooting better... but in the end it's the simple fundamentals.... grip and trigger control... these F'ers aren't easy to perfect either!

Brian and TGO sure knew what they were doing when they started experimenting with the grip, and arrived at the standard one we use today!

There is some room for personal adjustment/innovation, though-- it's important to remember that.

Although the core concepts and basic principles are true across the boards, every shooter is going to be slightly different in the specifics. Strength, build, hand size, the pistol they use, the length of their neck, the length of their arms-- a billion different factors all come into play in terms of what will work the very best. I personally believe in Brian's approach to the topic-- build the stance and grip based on the common suggestions, and then let your body naturally work out the rest. Film yourself, get some outside input, and fine-tune what's going on from there.

[SouthernYeti]

Thanks!

I will try increasing the pressure equally and see what that gets me. I do agree with the philosophy of applying common techniques to your grip and letting your body figure out what works for it.

[Sin-ster]

Thanks!

I will try increasing the pressure equally and see what that gets me. I do agree with the philosophy of applying common techniques to your grip and letting your body figure out what works for it.

That's a Brian sentiment, through and through. Just know that you've got to be totally open to the experience and have your mind in the right place for it to work properly.

IOW, your focus should probably be something like: "the post will lift from the notch and return to the exact same position in a controlled and quick manner".

Your body will interpret the info coming from your eyes (i.e. "that puppy is jumping around like crazy"), figure out why based on the feel in your hands, and adjust. Just let it happen.

Note that this may not be consistent or comfortable at first-- so you've got to be aware of what's going on and open to the experience. If you only see it once in a practice session, but miss out on what the feeling was like... you'll be mad at yourself, trust me!

[chbrow10]

Sin-ster is right about the fact that you've got to be aware of what happening, and about getting your NPA stance. Once I did that, the grip came easier.

I once took a quickie TGO class during the 2008 MGM/AMU Junior Camp. Rob talked about grip pressure among other things. In true Rob style, he said something like, "I don't know what percent the weak hand or strong hand is gripping the gun. All I know is that this hand (he holds one hand in the air) is holding on really tight and that this hand (he holds the other hand in the air) is holding on really tight."

Edited May 25, 2012 by chbrow10

[Sin-ster]

In true Rob style, he said something like, "I don't know what percent the weak hand or strong hand is gripping the gun. All I know is that this hand (he holds one hand in the air) is holding on really tight and that this hand (he holds the other hand in the air) is holding on really tight."

I like that.

Little gem you picked up as a perk of having a son that shoots! Maybe I need to get one of my own...

Or... definitely not.

[Xander]

For skinny guys like me, I have to grip much more harder especially on my weak hand. For me when gripping the gun with my weak hand I apply the same pressure when I'm trying to close the 80lb CoC, from there on I know I'm good to go

Now I wonder how Nils applies grip pressure when he shoots

[chevyoneton]

My experience with grip has led me to the 60/40. By gripping tighter with my weak hand my strong hand doesn't move the gun during trigger press. Sometimes when I'm struggling with a tough shot I'll consciously grip tighter with my weak hand to stabilize the gun better.

I took a class last week and from the Teacher's coaching this is about where I ended up. I think I have been gripping 40/60 and pulling shots. I have not shot a match with the "new" grip yet but in practice it did help.

[Sin-ster]

For skinny guys like me, I have to grip much more harder especially on my weak hand. For me when gripping the gun with my weak hand I apply the same pressure when I'm trying to close the 80lb CoC, from there on I know I'm good to go

Now I wonder how Nils applies grip pressure when he shoots

That's a great point of reference, actually-- I never thought about equating it that way.

I'll have to figure out how much I apply on the "CoC" scale when I'm around my grippers later on.

[Xander]

For skinny guys like me, I have to grip much more harder especially on my weak hand. For me when gripping the gun with my weak hand I apply the same pressure when I'm trying to close the 80lb CoC, from there on I know I'm good to go

Now I wonder how Nils applies grip pressure when he shoots

That's a great point of reference, actually-- I never thought about equating it that way.

I'll have to figure out how much I apply on the "CoC" scale when I'm around my grippers later on.

Goodluck

[robb315]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVhTA-n0ivE

[HI5-O]

What's the Hawaii 5-O grip he mentioned???

Use to teach the 60/40; 70/30 grip pressure until I found out I couldn't measure my grip. So now I just grip it tight with both hands and shoot

[sroe3]

Use to teach the 60/40; 70/30 grip pressure until I found out I couldn't measure my grip. So now I just grip it tight with both hands and shoot

Yeah, I know what you mean. I consider 60/40 a way to say "squeeze a little harder with the support hand than the firing hand." One hand is using more large motor skills, the other using more fine motor skills.

[Huck-LEI]

I grip with my shooting "right" hand only to the point that I still have the dexterity I need in my trigger finger to make a good, precise, and quick shot. I then make up the difference with my left hand so that I get consistent recoil and my sights fall back into place quickly. My left hand is definitely gripping the gun more than my right. 60/40 gives a shooter an idea that the support hand does most of the gripping, the key is to not focus on the numbers. Each person is different, so experimenting with grip is a good way to learn what works best for you. Unfortunately, that takes a lot of ammo.

I think I could go on for a long time about this subject since stance and grip are all too often skimmed over in terms of the fundamentals of shooting.

[Xander]

for more feel, I grip the gun with my stronghand as if I'm holding or using a hammer and again, the weak hand is like gripping or trying to close the 80lb CoC

[Poppa Bear]

Had a chance to do some actual practice tonight with my new STI. I was a Glock 35 shooter before with a major stipple job on the grip that did not require a lot of grip pressure to keep the gun solid. The grips are enough different that I learned a few things tonight.

Discovered while doing the double tap drills on two targets that if I took the time to get a more solid grip before I took the first shot that I could get .17 splits and hits 1 to 2 inches apart. If I hurried the grip so that it was not as solid as it should have been before the first shot then the splits were around .20 and the hits about 4 to 5 inches apart. The total time from draw to end of second shot on second target were a consistent 1.95 to 2.05. The draw time to first shot times were about .1 slower when I got a better grip so it did not take much time to improve the grip, but the splits and hits were much better. If I were to engage more than two targets my overall time and score would likely be better just due to the reduced split times while getting better hits.

The big difference in firming up my grip was just applying a good bit more pressure with both hands just squeezing harder. The thing to burn into my brain now is recognizing that grip pressure and subconsciously applying it every time I squeeze the trigger. Something easy to do when engaging an array, but harder to do when you are moving from array to array and relax your grip as you are moving. I might have a tendency to forget to tighten it up until it is to late until I get more familiar with how to shoot this gun properly.

[grapemeister]

I too have been experimenting with my grip lately, especially since I’m now reading Brian’s book, and I’m now reading the part about gripping the gun. Thanks again SouthernYeti for letting me borrow the book.

Before getting into practical shooting I was using the old thumb over thumb technique. I’ve been using the thumbs forward technique for about two years now, and although I found that it’s a much better technique, I haven’t been totally comfortable with my grip, and something about my grip seemed awkward. Another thing I noticed was that after establishing my grip, and if I relaxed my hands, the front sight would move to the left. The sight would line back up with the rear notch again once the normal amount of grip pressure was applied. It wasn’t until recently that it dawned on me that maybe that’s the reason that my shots would sometimes go slightly to the left when group shooting.

Reading the section in Brian’s book prompted me to try a different approach by establishing a neutral grip, relaxing, and giving my body the freedom to work it out. The new approach still didn’t totally solve the problem, and it took about a week of experimenting but this last Saturday, and unexpectedly, it happened.

My gun was lying on the couch near the TV as I was in the other room when something happened during the NASCAR race that caught my attention. I went over to the couch, sat down and without really thinking about it, I picked up the gun, and established a grip on the gun. As I had been doing for about a week, I established a very relaxed grip with the gun at the center of my chest, and I pushed out toward the TV. To my astonishment, I finally found the grip that seems to work for me. I could hardly believe that it happened, especially since I wasn’t paying full attention to what I was doing. I next applied the usual pressure, relaxed my hands again, and the front sight didn’t move!

The grip I discovered also seems very comfortable and more natural. I’m sure there was more than one thing that changed which allowed this to happen, but one thing I noticed was that I wasn’t sharing enough of the gun with my support hand.

Anyhow, thanks Brian for a wonderful book. I hope others out there that are struggling with finding the right grip will get some insight from my story. I guess the biggest lesson learned out of this is to remain flexible, and always be open to change.

This is only my opinion, and to each his own, but I really don’t think any thoughts of percentages as far as what hand grips harder than the other is the way to go. I think neutrality, and letting the body figure it out should be the thought process. Anyhow, that seems to be what is working for me.

[dravz]

for more feel, I grip the gun with my stronghand as if I'm holding or using a hammer and again, the weak hand is like gripping or trying to close the 80lb CoC

This description is the closest to my own grip. I have to consciously tell my weak-hand to SQUEEZE to get it where I want it, and consciously tell my strong-hand to RELAX to get it where I want it. I'm pretty sure my grip was more like 10/90 for a long time. But recently I noticed my weak-hand just seemed to be "there" and not really contributing, so I've really been focused on getting my weak-hand to squeeze more. I noticed this thanks to someone's range diary entries where an instructor got onto them because their weak-hand was just tagging along instead of really gripping. They corrected it and I'm working to do the same. Fundamentals really are fundamental, one little thing after another.

[drysideshooter]

Just yesterday my son and I spent some time with a friend who is a master level open shooter and he was offering us some tips. He showed us, very clearly, that if you set up for something like a Bill Drill, 7 yards or so away from a target, but with the gun drawn, pick an aiming point and shoot 6 shots with an even cadence, not worrying about speed too much, it will show you what you need to do with your grip. Getting the right sight picture and then rattling off 6 as fast as you can once you have the right sight picture also really shows a lot. When I had to much grip force with my right (shooting hand) my shots would start going lower as my right hand was pushing the gun down in anticipation of recoil. When I had it just right the shots would not have much vertical spread to them. It is really amazing to me how with the right amount of grip pressure with the support hand the gun will return to right where it was before the shot broke. My son really seemed to get it down and ended up having some targets with one big hole.

For us, that one simple drill probably gave us the best way we've found to analyze our grip pressure.