triplesinglestack Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 So at the local club match the other day, a guy had a CZ (75?) 9mm but it was SAO, (single action only), but to be fair to the rules of production, he lowers the hammer prior to the start, then manual cocks the hammer after the start signal, and runs COF, is this legal? if so why/why not? thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triplesinglestack Posted May 16, 2012 Author Share Posted May 16, 2012 sorry meant to post in the rules sub cat..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.roberts Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) Are any of the CZ SAO models on the Production list? (Which can be found here.) No. So, no. eta: link Edited May 16, 2012 by a.roberts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleL Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 I could be wrong.... But I'm pretty sure that SAO pushes him into limited 10 or limited at minor PF. Was reading rules the other day because I'm new and I'd swear production rules specifically state no single action only. Also believe the book says first shot must be from hammer down condition, doesn't mention a thumb being involved, but hey like I said I'm new. I'll go check when I get a moment and repost. On a side note, if that were legal... I'm assuming lots of shooters would opt to cock while pushing out on the draw so as not to have to bother with the DA trigger pull. Never seen that so far.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleL Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Oh and I thought as a new guy I would be slick and get in first!!! Dangit! That was fast a.Roberts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 I could be wrong.... But I'm pretty sure that SAO pushes him into limited 10 or limited at minor PF. Was reading rules the other day because I'm new and I'd swear production rules specifically state no single action only. Also believe the book says first shot must be from hammer down condition, doesn't mention a thumb being involved, but hey like I said I'm new. I'll go check when I get a moment and repost. On a side note, if that were legal... I'm assuming lots of shooters would opt to cock while pushing out on the draw so as not to have to bother with the DA trigger pull. Never seen that so far.... What the rule book says is that the hammer must be fully down at the start of a course of fire, not that the first shot must be double action..... You can cock the hammer after the start signal and fire away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunguru Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 As USPSA follow in most aspect the IPSC basic production rules, please let me quote Mr Pinto. Direct from vince Pinto, IPSC Handgun Rules Director : Since so many people quote bogus, third-hand, "somebody told me" or "my guess is" reasons why Production Division was conceived and created by IPSC, I thought it's time for me to explain the actual concept and the underlying philosophy, in the order of importance:1. The Religious Decision: Thou Shalt Not Use Traditional Single-Action-Only Guns! 2. Le Menu, Madame: Le Approved Gun List! 3. The Answer Is No! Extremely Limited Modifications Permitted (aka TINKERERS & GUNSMITHS NOT WELCOME)! 4. Yes Dear, We Intended It To Be A 9mm Division! 5. No Dear, It Was Never Intended To Be A Cheap / Entry Level / Shoot What Ya Brung / (Fill In The Blank) Division! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunguru Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 And best... IPSC Rules book: Special conditions: 14. Only handguns listed as approved on the IPSC website may be used in Production Division. Note that handguns deemed by IPSC to be single-action-only are expressly prohibited.15. Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked (see Rule 8.1.2.5), at the start signal. First shot attempted must be double action. Competitors in this Division who, after the issuance of the start signal and prior to attempting the first shot, cock the hammer on a handgun which has a loaded chamber, will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence. Note that a procedural penalty will not be assessed in respect of courses of fire where the ready condition requires the competitor to prepare the handgun with an empty chamber. In these cases, the competitor may fire the first shot single action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 And best... IPSC Rules book: Special conditions: 14. Only handguns listed as approved on the IPSC website may be used in Production Division. Note that handguns deemed by IPSC to be single-action-only are expressly prohibited.15. Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked (see Rule 8.1.2.5), at the start signal. First shot attempted must be double action. Competitors in this Division who, after the issuance of the start signal and prior to attempting the first shot, cock the hammer on a handgun which has a loaded chamber, will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence. Note that a procedural penalty will not be assessed in respect of courses of fire where the ready condition requires the competitor to prepare the handgun with an empty chamber. In these cases, the competitor may fire the first shot single action. For USPSA, #15 above is not true. Handgun ready conditions: 8.1.2.2: Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or de-cocked. 8.1.2.3: "Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down, or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D). Appendix D4 (for Production rules): "Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal." There is no rule whatsoever about what has to happen after the start signal. As GrumpyOne said, after the start signal, you can do as you like. Feel free to cock the hammer by hand if you wish. USPSA does agree with IPSC regarding "No single-action only" pistols for Production, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 And best... IPSC Rules book: Special conditions: 14. Only handguns listed as approved on the IPSC website may be used in Production Division. Note that handguns deemed by IPSC to be single-action-only are expressly prohibited.15. Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked (see Rule 8.1.2.5), at the start signal. First shot attempted must be double action. Competitors in this Division who, after the issuance of the start signal and prior to attempting the first shot, cock the hammer on a handgun which has a loaded chamber, will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence. Note that a procedural penalty will not be assessed in respect of courses of fire where the ready condition requires the competitor to prepare the handgun with an empty chamber. In these cases, the competitor may fire the first shot single action. This is one of the more and more frequent discrepancies between USPSA and IPSC. No thumbcocking in IPSC. Fine in USPSA after the buzzer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 ... but to be fair to the rules of production, he lowers the hammer prior to the start, then manual cocks the hammer after the start signal, and runs COF, is this legal? if so why/why not? thanks. In this case (USPSA), it is the equipment that is regulated by the division rules, not the shooting procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauntedfuture Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Im looking into a CZ. Could someone please clarify. Do you have to engage the safety if your first shot is DA? tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Im looking into a CZ. Could someone please clarify. Do you have to engage the safety if your first shot is DA? tanks. No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uzi Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 In this case (USPSA), it is the equipment that is regulated by the division rules, not the shooting procedure. hello, what about the revolver? can only shot 6 bullet even if gun have 8 bullet. is that shooting proceedure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 In this case (USPSA), it is the equipment that is regulated by the division rules, not the shooting procedure. hello, what about the revolver? can only shot 6 bullet even if gun have 8 bullet. is that shooting proceedure? In Revolver yes, Production you can shoot all 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splashdown Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I feel there's some need for clarification on the above questions: Can't use a SAO gun in USPSA production, period. You can use a CZ DA/SA in USPSA production - the hammer has to be down, in double action mode, before the "Are you ready" command can be given. Some CZ's have a decocking lever, some require manually lowering the hammer. The model needs to be listed on the Approved Production Gun list. Revovlers in Revolver division may only shoot 6 rounds between reloads. You can shoot a revolver in production division and use all 8 rounds if your cylinder holds that many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillC Posted June 10, 2012 Share Posted June 10, 2012 I shoot a CZ 75B in Production. It works quite nicely. You must start with hammer fully down. This means on 'Make Ready' you chamber a round and then _carefully_ lower the hammer all the way down. An AD when lowering the hammer is a DQ, obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 How would the IPSC rule affect an unloaded gun start? Still first shot must be DA? So, that would mean that after loading on the clock, you would have to manually lower the hammer, then fire your first DA shot? Or can you blast away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 How would the IPSC rule affect an unloaded gun start? Still first shot must be DA? So, that would mean that after loading on the clock, you would have to manually lower the hammer, then fire your first DA shot? Or can you blast away? From the IPSC Rule book: 15. Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked (see Rule 8.1.2.5), at the start signal. First shot attempted must be double action. Competitors in this Division who, after the issuance of the start signal and prior to attempting the first shot, cock the hammer on a handgun which has a loaded chamber, will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence. Note that a procedural penalty will not be assessed in respect of courses of fire where the ready condition requires the competitor to prepare the handgun with an empty chamber. In these cases, the competitor may fire the first shot single action Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 How would the IPSC rule affect an unloaded gun start? Still first shot must be DA? So, that would mean that after loading on the clock, you would have to manually lower the hammer, then fire your first DA shot? Or can you blast away? From the IPSC Rule book: 15. Handguns with external hammers must be fully decocked (see Rule 8.1.2.5), at the start signal. First shot attempted must be double action. Competitors in this Division who, after the issuance of the start signal and prior to attempting the first shot, cock the hammer on a handgun which has a loaded chamber, will incur one procedural penalty per occurrence. Note that a procedural penalty will not be assessed in respect of courses of fire where the ready condition requires the competitor to prepare the handgun with an empty chamber. In these cases, the competitor may fire the first shot single action Doh! That was posted in a previous post! Me dummy, no read entire post! Thanks Chuck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 A well regulated Division, being necessary to the security of Production, the right of the people to be competitive with factory pistols, shall not be infringed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 A well regulated Division, being necessary to the security of Production, the right of the people to be competitive with factory pistols, shall not be infringed. NICE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gng4life Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 A well regulated Division, being necessary to the security of Production, the right of the people to be competitive with factory pistols, shall not be infringed. NICE! That is just too cool! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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