beltjones Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 How are the Super Squads at Nationals chosen? I can't see a rhyme or reason to it, and I don't think it's spelled out in the rule book. I see the following as possible methods: -Placement at the previous year's Nationals -Past victories at Nationals -At the request of major event sponsors -Purely on the subjective decision of the MD How is it done currently? Is there one method that is more fair than others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I always thought it was based on the results of previous years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 I always thought it was based on the results of previous years. That seems like a fair way to do it, but it's not the case based on some exceptions I can see. E.g, in Production, Matt Hopkins finished ahead of Brad Engmann in 2010, but in 2011 Brad was on the Super Squad and Matt was not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 The folks on the Super Squad still have friends and folks they like or don't like to shoot with. I know for the Multi-Gun Nationals in the past a GM friend was placed on the Super Squad and then asked to moved on our little squad of no bodies because he preferred shooting with us. Funny thing, we were following the Super Squad and the TV folks never came over to film and missed him taking 2nd and another guy on our squad taking 3rd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 The folks on the Super Squad still have friends and folks they like or don't like to shoot with. I know for the Multi-Gun Nationals in the past a GM friend was placed on the Super Squad and then asked to moved on our little squad of no bodies because he preferred shooting with us. Funny thing, we were following the Super Squad and the TV folks never came over to film and missed him taking 2nd and another guy on our squad taking 3rd. I think there is a lot more to it than this. In 2010 Lee Dimaculangan and Shane Coley were both on the Nats Production Super Squad despite not having shot in the Production match the year before. How were they chosen? Why was Max Michel on the Production Super Squad in 2010? It appears to be up to the MD. Can anyone confirm otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 It's picked by the match staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 It's picked by the match staff. This. I was placed with the top production shooters in Alabama and I asked to be moved back to where I was to shoot with the guys I wanted to. Not that I'm super squad material but I think its just who they think will be towards the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 one more thing I will never have to worry about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 It's picked by the match staff. That's what I figured. The next question is, is that a fair way to do it in terms of Nationals? I don't think it is. Virtually everyone I've spoken to says shooting on the SS is an advantage. There was a thread here where the consensus was that shooting with better shooters will help your performance. Why not have people earn their way on to the SS? Hold a few spots for previous Division winners at Nats (the TGO rule), and offer the rest to the top finishers in the class from the previous year. Let people opt out if they so desire, then offer the spot on the SS to the next highest finisher from the previous year. Otherwise it seems that match staff is able to play favorites, which in our egalitarian sport seems wrong. I wonder if others would agree... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ong45 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I think there is a lot more to it than this. In 2010 Lee Dimaculangan and Shane Coley were both on the Nats Production Super Squad despite not having shot in the Production match the year before. How were they chosen? Why was Max Michel on the Production Super Squad in 2010? It appears to be up to the MD. Can anyone confirm otherwise? Squadding has never been an exact science, sometimes they look into the crystal ball to see who's hot . Since the 3 guys above placed in the top 11 it seems they guessed right. And yes usually the MD assigned the SS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 (edited) After writing several posts, deleting and realizing I have nothing good to add about Super Squads, I 'll leave this sleeping bear alone. Edited April 17, 2012 by shootingchef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 It's not just the MD. In general HQ (Dave Thomas) has a big hand in picking who the Super Squads are for Nationals. It's based on who try anticipate will finish well at the top. I've never heard of making a decision based on sponsorship. It's more than just placement in the previous years Nationals. Obviously any gun Max picks up he will be a threat to win to win with. If Graufel shows up to shoot the Productuon Nats I just about guarantee he'll be in the squad. As far as it being an advantage or not. It's a toss up. Being with them when you're getting your butt kicked can be demoralizing. It can also lead to an awful lot of pressure that isn't there on the other squads. There really isn't a good objective way to do it. If you go based solely on prior performance you can miss the potential winner. If you allow people to pick you end up with 100 people trying to be on that squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 I think there is a lot more to it than this. In 2010 Lee Dimaculangan and Shane Coley were both on the Nats Production Super Squad despite not having shot in the Production match the year before. How were they chosen? Why was Max Michel on the Production Super Squad in 2010? It appears to be up to the MD. Can anyone confirm otherwise? Squadding has never been an exact science, sometimes they look into the crystal ball to see who's hot . Since the 3 guys above placed in the top 11 it seems they guessed right. And yes usually the MD assigned the SS. Those guys are great shooters, no doubt. BUT - did their presence on the super squad help their performance? Would they have scored in the 20's if they had been on a squad with a bunch of C and B level Production shooters and a few Open shooters? You can't use their results in the tournament to justify putting them on the super squad if being on the super squad possibly helped them place so well in the tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 It's not just the MD. In general HQ (Dave Thomas) has a big hand in picking who the Super Squads are for Nationals. It's based on who try anticipate will finish well at the top. I've never heard of making a decision based on sponsorship. It's more than just placement in the previous years Nationals. Obviously any gun Max picks up he will be a threat to win to win with. If Graufel shows up to shoot the Productuon Nats I just about guarantee he'll be in the squad. As far as it being an advantage or not. It's a toss up. Being with them when you're getting your butt kicked can be demoralizing. It can also lead to an awful lot of pressure that isn't there on the other squads. There really isn't a good objective way to do it. If you go based solely on prior performance you can miss the potential winner. If you allow people to pick you end up with 100 people trying to be on that squad. You've never heard of them making a decision based on sponsorship? Then how do you explain putting unclassified members of the AMU on the super squads? I'll grant that Max, even as a U in Production should probably be on the super squad (even if it is grossly unfair to the Production shooters who have put in the time in the division). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I think your premise is slightly flawed. A GM is going to know how they're performing relative - regardless. When was the last time you talked to one that said "I've got no clue how I'm doing." When was it they needed to steal plans from each other during walk throughs? I just don't see it as being a disadvantage for the person that is at that level. Maybe the occasional B person being pulled up to a stronger finish - I'm not seeing anything but their own mind knocking them off their game - and certainly not NOT being put on the supersquad. Then again - I'm a B shooter. Maybe we should wait for the GMs to chime in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 hmmm, Glenn S, Steve S, Nils J., Cody McK. .. the list goes on and on of shooters who are capable of placing in the top ten who are not placed on the SS. I like the idea of it not being an exact science, sounds better than voodoo magic. Way back when, there were probably only 7-10 shooters in the upper upper part of the sport. GMs were pretty rare. Seems like there are a lot of M class shooters and unknown GMs that could be placed on the 'super squad.' Now days there are just too many really good shooters to have just one super squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yagi Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 If it was me... There would be no super squad... Nils won limited not being in the ss and so many others in the past... but then again it is always good for us when watching GM's and M's in one or two groups together... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 hmmm, Glenn S, Steve S, Nils J., Cody McK. .. the list goes on and on of shooters who are capable of placing in the top ten who are not placed on the SS. I like the idea of it not being an exact science, sounds better than voodoo magic. Way back when, there were probably only 7-10 shooters in the upper upper part of the sport. GMs were pretty rare. Seems like there are a lot of M class shooters and unknown GMs that could be placed on the 'super squad.' Now days there are just too many really good shooters to have just one super squad. That's why it seems like the fair thing to do is to use the previous year's results to pick the super squads; otherwise it's just a few folks hand picking their favorite shooters to be on the squad. It seems that either all the squads should be assigned based on the "rank" of the shooters (GMs together, Ms together, etc), or the criteria for picking a "super squad" at a self-service match should be very transparent. Frankly I think assigning people based on rank would be awful, and I wish they would be more fair and more transparent about who gets to be on the super squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 I think your premise is slightly flawed. A GM is going to know how they're performing relative - regardless. When was the last time you talked to one that said "I've got no clue how I'm doing." When was it they needed to steal plans from each other during walk throughs? I just don't see it as being a disadvantage for the person that is at that level. Maybe the occasional B person being pulled up to a stronger finish - I'm not seeing anything but their own mind knocking them off their game - and certainly not NOT being put on the supersquad. Then again - I'm a B shooter. Maybe we should wait for the GMs to chime in. No offense, but I can tell that you haven't followed a SS at a national event. Even if they don't know it, they're getting small advantages here and there. I'm not impugning the integrity of the ROs - we all know what a tough job that is. But on several instances I timed the 5 minute walkthrough at far more than 5 minutes for the super squad. I also made a point of watching SS members on one stage where the RO got on my case about my load-and-make-ready routine. The same RO didn't say anything to the SS members for doing the same thing I did. I think the reasons for these occurrences is not that the ROs are trying to play favorites, but I think it's really easy for a lot of ROs to get intimidated by super squads. If the selection process were more egalitarian at least the members of the super squads would "deserve" the enhanced treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I keep seeing "fair" brought up. What part of which squad you go on fair or unfair ? Guess I just dont get it. You still have to shoot the match. The super squad doesnt get some kinda privileged time slot or shoot throughs, Why does it matter ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 You've never heard of them making a decision based on sponsorship? Then how do you explain putting unclassified members of the AMU on the super squads? I'll grant that Max, even as a U in Production should probably be on the super squad (even if it is grossly unfair to the Production shooters who have put in the time in the division). Last year was a World Shoot year, so perhaps people were squadded together based on the teams for the WS... just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 You've never heard of them making a decision based on sponsorship? Then how do you explain putting unclassified members of the AMU on the super squads? I'll grant that Max, even as a U in Production should probably be on the super squad (even if it is grossly unfair to the Production shooters who have put in the time in the division). Last year was a World Shoot year, so perhaps people were squadded together based on the teams for the WS... just a thought. Look at 2010. Same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 May I suggest you contact USPSA and ask them what the criteria is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 No need to contact USPSA. The criteria has been described here already. The point now is whether or not it is fair. I offer that it is indeed not fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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