Why Are More Saiga 12's Not Used?

[twodelta]

I have a Saiga 12 that I converted myself, and it runs great with cheap Federal stuff or Winchester AA. I only have $800 in it right now not including magazines. I got the gun for $500. I got the new trigger group, stock adapter, Magpul stock, gas piston, and gas plug from different vendors. I read up on them before purchase, and yes there are 'Vodka Specials' out there. I guess I got lucky, and my gas ports were drilled correctly from the factory.

Having said all this I still use my Benelli M1 for 3 gun because I don't want to shoot open. There's more competition in Tac Optics. I couldn't afford a competitive 3 gun pistol if I wanted one

I wouldn't hesitate to use the S12 if I could afford all the other gear.

[Alaskapopo]

I have a Saiga 12 that I converted myself, and it runs great with cheap Federal stuff or Winchester AA. I only have $800 in it right now not including magazines. I got the gun for $500. I got the new trigger group, stock adapter, Magpul stock, gas piston, and gas plug from different vendors. I read up on them before purchase, and yes there are 'Vodka Specials' out there. I guess I got lucky, and my gas ports were drilled correctly from the factory.

Having said all this I still use my Benelli M1 for 3 gun because I don't want to shoot open. There's more competition in Tac Optics. I couldn't afford a competitive 3 gun pistol if I wanted one

I wouldn't hesitate to use the S12 if I could afford all the other gear.

I shot with my limited pistol in open my first season with my R&R saiga and did quite well up here. The Saiga was enough of an advantage on the shotgun stages to make up for my weaker pistol. (for the divison). The rifle is about the same except for the optic and side red dot which are not always needed.

Pat

Edited March 29, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[SinistralRifleman]

I'm not convinced that open pistol in 3 gun makes much difference given that stage designs tend to throw pistol in as an afterthought. And as Alaskapopo said there is little difference between Tac Scope and Open rifles anymore. I rarely run into places to actually use a bipod anymore, and most of the time there is space to dial an optic up or down in magnification on the move.

[KentG]

I'm not convinced that open pistol in 3 gun makes much difference given that stage designs tend to throw pistol in as an afterthought. And as Alaskapopo said there is little difference between Tac Scope and Open rifles anymore. I rarely run into places to actually use a bipod anymore, and most of the time there is space to dial an optic up or down in magnification on the move.

It actually has for me. This season I'm using a XDm 5.25 9mm with 28+1 mags, a carver mount with Cmore. The dot has already proven to help me quite a bit but pistol has always been my weekest link. May not make a big diff for others though.

[twodelta]

I may run the Saiga at one of our local matches one day. I actually have a threaded barrel and comp for my M&P Pro too. Nobody as a good mount for a dot yet though.

[pjb45]

I watched a Saiga shotguns run at the SMM3G.

When they ran, they were awesome. I do think I saw problems with at least one on each stage. They seems a bit temperamental to me.

[THM7]

When you turn them into full blown open guns with multiple comps and shortened gas systems then yes they are temperamental. If you stick with a basic conversion, do some reliability mods, and add a mag well, the average guy is ready to go.

[gose]

An Akdal is the same price as a Saiga OOB and once the mag situation is under control, would be a much better "low cost" alternative than a stock Saiga and I think this might convince more people to move to open.

I also kinda agree that in many matches you wont gain much from shooting an open pistol, since most shots will be close range and you only need two on paper, the dot and comp wont give you much. It will be a while until someone who just started is good enough with the rifle and shotgun that the pistol is really slowing him down.

I just switched to open with the arrival of my Akdal and I'm still trying to figure out what to do with my pistol (right now I'm shooting a borrowed one). If I cant get my Open pistol to run I might end up putting a mount and dot on my 9mm limited pistol, since I know it runs 100% and thats way more important than the slightly faster splits I'll get with a comp. One jam with a finicky open gun and that time is lost...

Edited March 30, 2012 by gose

[ALBY]

I love my saiga 12, but if you buy one, make sure you have a good set of files.

i have been cutting and grinding on that thing since the day i got it. I've had a magwell on, then off to run with drums. My CSS mag release broke in half at one match. My polychone froze and was jettisoned in favor of SGM chokes. The list goes on and on.

I *think* i got her running now, but honestly, you just never know with these guns. When they run, they run very fast. I think mine was made on a Monday morning... (hangover day at the izmash plant!)

on another note.

i'm a little saddened that 3GN has sucked all the oxygen out of OPEN. i built a glock with a melted dot and a saiga just in time for the sport to standardize on tac ops gear.

there

[downhere2]

I may run the Saiga at one of our local matches one day. I actually have a threaded barrel and comp for my M&P Pro too. Nobody as a good mount for a dot yet though.

Speed shooter specialties has a mount that fits in the rear sight dovetail. http://www.speedshooterspecialties.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=78_202&products_id=1149

I used one last year and it worked well.

Edited March 30, 2012 by downhere2

[BF1080]

I started out with Saiga. I used several different brands of shells. When it ran, it was great. When it came to competitions, it would jam. I came to a cross road- send the Saiga off to gunsmith and spend some money on it to make it more reliable or invest in another gun. My decision was to retire the Saiga for now and I put my money into a new Mossberg 930 JM pro. I just picked it up today. It is a sweet gun. Balanced and has a very nice trigger pull. Tomorrow is range day for testing.

Edited April 2, 2012 by BF1080

[bwo6.5]

I have a couple of M2 Benelli's set up for tactical and a couple set up for open class. I purchased a Saiga with all the modifications from Robert at R&R about 6 months ago. I shot it at the SMM 3-G and the USPSA Multi Gun Nationals. The shotgun runs flawlessly. I had the ten and twelve round magazines. I recently purchased a twenty round magazine. I had some issues, so I changed the recoil spring to an 18 lb. and the twenty round magazine functions flawlessly as well. The bottom line is that the R&R Saiga is just a lot of fun to shoot. There is almost no recoil, I am shooting 1530 fps, 1 oz slugs and its like shooting 1150 fps low recoil slugs. Reloading is as easy as sticking a magazine in. R&R does a nice job, there are only four original Saiga parts left on the shotgun, and those are modified. One thing I don't like about the Akdal is that it has a composite lower receiver. I saw an individual shooting an Akdal at the USPSA Multi Gun Nationls, it had seroius function problems. Each magazine that the competitor used, the shotgun had a number of malfunctions. I also noticed that the members of team Firebird that I saw were shooting a Saiga. I also agree that with time plus scoring and very few penalty targets and as far as I was concerned there were no difficult shots at the Multi Gun Nationals, with getting rid of the power factor there is not much advantage in shooting open, except it is just a lot of fun. There are definitely some elements missing in the DVC, like accuracy and power. I also had a hard time with buying a Russian firearm. My R&R Saiga was my first. As it has been said, there is not much else on the market that is comparable at the moment. The Saiga does take minimal maintenance to keep it operational and you do have to shoot a high quality shot shell. Other than that there is not much you need to do. Probably the main reason that more Saigas are not used in competition is the initial purchase price for a customized unit. Most of the time I don't look at what the pro or full time shooters are using because 9 out of 10 times it has been given to them by their sponsors. So make your own decision and have a lot of fun.

[Alaskapopo]

I love my R&R as well it allowed me to get a 6th place finish on a all shotgun stage at the Texas Multigun Nationals and my buddy did even better on that stage at 4th place. My overall was 24th and his was 13th. I had a few issues with slugs and the heat and next year I will be keeping my ammo in a cooler. My shot ran fine. I did have an issue on the last shotgun rifle stage when my c clip holding the hammer pin in came loose or broke (not sure which). I spoke with Robert and he recommends putting two c clips on each pin now and thats what I have done and I am back up and running. Love this gun. I am taking it to Ozarks this september. I need to find a better slug to use might try to special order some fiochi 7/8 ouch slugs.

pat

Edited May 2, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[THM7]

I had the chance to handle a New Firebird MKA 1919 today at our local carbine/shotgun match (Rio Salado, AZ)....very Nice...However it had reliability issues. The Mags were very, very, well made...but $$$..$120 for a 10rnd'er I believe. My S12 with countless rnds thru it was totally reliable...with Surefire/AGP mags. The S12 is not dead yet in "Open" IMHO...The MKA 1919 has a ways to go.

[nipplehead]

I had the chance to handle a New Firebird MKA 1919 today at our local carbine/shotgun match (Rio Salado, AZ)....very Nice...However it had reliability issues. The Mags were very, very, well made...but $$$..$120 for a 10rnd'er I believe. My S12 with countless rnds thru it was totally reliable...with Surefire/AGP mags. The S12 is not dead yet in "Open" IMHO...The MKA 1919 has a ways to go.

Yes those mags are expensive! I own a firebird 1919. seems this thread is drifting to beat up 1919. Any why mine runs...it had some issues first time out. I had to smooth out lots of rough edges on the bolt and the throat of the barrel. I run this gun extremely wet but after polishing things and using my noodle plus I own a remmy..I figured it out in 3 shooting sessions.Now I do have Jims new gas system designed for lighter loads in this gun....I believe the big problem most folks are having besides rough edges...is that they are running sporting clay 1300 fps loads when the hottest thing they should run through it is a 1200 3dram eq load. They are beating the gun up and making the bolt go so fast the mag is not keeping up with it. I run 2 3/4 dram EQ loads both 1oz and 1 1/8. the 1 1/8 being STS 1145 fps loads. the other is a 1oz rio trap load. Honestly I have not put 1000s of rounds through it but it is running 100% now.

[Doug H.]

seems this thread is drifting to beat up 1919.

Could be because this is a Saiga thread.

Doug

[nipplehead]

seems this thread is drifting to beat up 1919.

Could be because this is a Saiga thread.

Doug

Yea it is ...so why are so many Saiga owners randomly bringing up the 1919???????

[Doug H.]

seems this thread is drifting to beat up 1919.

Could be because this is a Saiga thread.

Doug

Yea it is ...so why are so many Saiga owners randomly bringing up the 1919???????

I think most of them have seen a 1919 at a match and are glad they have a Saiga!

[nipplehead]

Yea I believe that but how long did it take to get the Saiga platform to work? And how much $$$ in one to make it run. Granted if the 1919 was $10 but did not work then it still would be better to have a 3500.00 saiga but they have been on the scene for what 6 weeks? It will get figured out..mine runs..others will too

[Doug H.]

Yea I believe that but how long did it take to get the Saiga platform to work? And how much $$$ in one to make it run. Granted if the 1919 was $10 but did not work then it still would be better to have a 3500.00 saiga but they have been on the scene for what 6 weeks? It will get figured out..mine runs..others will too

Only time will tell which platform is better. I'm pretty sure the Akdal has been available for at least a year and will continue to develop. Biggest problem will be magazines and that will probably be the case until someone spends the money to make a metal mag from scratch. That will be just in time for an American made metal frame 12ga to become available and sweep the Akdal into the dustbin of history.

Doug

Edited May 3, 2012 by Doug H.

[nipplehead]

Yea I believe that but how long did it take to get the Saiga platform to work? And how much $$$ in one to make it run. Granted if the 1919 was $10 but did not work then it still would be better to have a 3500.00 saiga but they have been on the scene for what 6 weeks? It will get figured out..mine runs..others will too

Only time will tell which platform is better. I'm pretty sure the Akdal has been available for at least a year and will continue to develop. Biggest problem will be magazines and that will probably be the case until someone spends the money to make a metal mag from scratch. That will be just in time for an American made metal frame 12ga to become available and sweep the Akdal into the dustbin of history.

Doug

Ok the firebird 1919 has been on the scene for about 6 weeks. By years end Firebird will be stamping there own mags. Nether platform is better if they both work...Saiga dont exactly have the greatest record of bullet proof reliability now does it? If an american gun comes to market your Saiga will be in the dustbin of history aswell..if it works. All I know my gun works at half the price of a full out Saiga.

Dont forget the akdal shares the same controls as everyones beloved AR 15 s.

Edited May 3, 2012 by nipplehead

[Doug H.]

Yea I believe that but how long did it take to get the Saiga platform to work? And how much $$$ in one to make it run. Granted if the 1919 was $10 but did not work then it still would be better to have a 3500.00 saiga but they have been on the scene for what 6 weeks? It will get figured out..mine runs..others will too

Only time will tell which platform is better. I'm pretty sure the Akdal has been available for at least a year and will continue to develop. Biggest problem will be magazines and that will probably be the case until someone spends the money to make a metal mag from scratch. That will be just in time for an American made metal frame 12ga to become available and sweep the Akdal into the dustbin of history.

Doug

Ok the firebird 1919 has been on the scene for about 6 weeks. By years end Firebird will be stamping there own mags. Nether platform is better if they both work...Saiga dont exactly have the greatest record of bullet proof reliability now does it? If an american gun comes to market your Saiga will be in the dustbin of history aswell..if it works. All I know my gun works at half the price of a full out Saiga.

Dont forget the akdal shares the same controls as everyones beloved AR 15 s.

I have 2 R&R Saigas and I've been using them in competition for almost 3 years. R&R Saigas have the same controls as my AR but the original Saiga does not. The reliabilty of my guns has been excellent and the only problems I have faced were caused by worn out springs or poorly chosen ammuntion. The learning curve on mag fed guns is pretty steep and getting an Akdal to function reliably will take more time. The folks that are saying that it will kill the Saiga are dreaming at this point. Will the 1919 win out in the long run, who knows, but it needs to win SOMETHING before we give it too much credit.

Doug

[nipplehead]

Yea I believe that but how long did it take to get the Saiga platform to work? And how much $$$ in one to make it run. Granted if the 1919 was $10 but did not work then it still would be better to have a 3500.00 saiga but they have been on the scene for what 6 weeks? It will get figured out..mine runs..others will too

Only time will tell which platform is better. I'm pretty sure the Akdal has been available for at least a year and will continue to develop. Biggest problem will be magazines and that will probably be the case until someone spends the money to make a metal mag from scratch. That will be just in time for an American made metal frame 12ga to become available and sweep the Akdal into the dustbin of history.

Doug

Ok the firebird 1919 has been on the scene for about 6 weeks. By years end Firebird will be stamping there own mags. Nether platform is better if they both work...Saiga dont exactly have the greatest record of bullet proof reliability now does it? If an american gun comes to market your Saiga will be in the dustbin of history aswell..if it works. All I know my gun works at half the price of a full out Saiga.

Dont forget the akdal shares the same controls as everyones beloved AR 15 s.

I have 2 R&R Saigas and I've been using them in competition for almost 3 years. R&R Saigas have the same controls as my AR but the original Saiga does not. The reliabilty of my guns has been excellent and the only problems I have faced were caused by worn out springs or poorly chosen ammuntion. The learning curve on mag fed guns is pretty steep and getting an Akdal to function reliably will take more time. The folks that are saying that it will kill the Saiga are dreaming at this point. Will the 1919 win out in the long run, who knows, but it needs to win SOMETHING before we give it too much credit.

Doug

Woe Doug you got deep pockets!!! Hey R&R saigas are awesome my friend has one.I dont believe akdal will kill Saiga.I wanted an R&R when I got into open until i found out how much they cost. Decided to see if a Firebird Saiga was any less expensive. when I contacted Jim he told me he was done with Saiga and he was developing the akdal(this was late october). I decided to get involved with that work in progress and hope for the best. as far as winning something... Doug what did Taran Butler use when he won the triple crown...

[Alaskapopo]

I had the chance to handle a New Firebird MKA 1919 today at our local carbine/shotgun match (Rio Salado, AZ)....very Nice...However it had reliability issues. The Mags were very, very, well made...but $$$..$120 for a 10rnd'er I believe. My S12 with countless rnds thru it was totally reliable...with Surefire/AGP mags. The S12 is not dead yet in "Open" IMHO...The MKA 1919 has a ways to go.

Very true one of the guys I shoot with up here has one and so far its been very hit and miss on reliablity. Time will tell and the bugs will have to be worked out just like the process the Saiga went through.

Pat

[Doug H.]

as far as winning something... Doug what did Taran Butler use when he won the triple crown...

Taran was rocking a Saiga, I'm not sure who built it but it was not an R&R. He was #1 on the all shotgun stage at Nationals, I was #2. The most big match wins with a box fed mag shotgun belongs to Clint Upchurch using an R&R Saiga. I'm old and fat (though not as fat as Butler) and I don't move as fast as the young guys but I try to keep up as best I can.

I wish all the new Open shooters the best of luck with their Akdals, the more in the Division the larger our prize tables will be. As with anything else in competition, the results page will tell us what works.

Doug