Growth

[webbo]

This is my third summer running a monthly 3 gun shoot. I like doing it..? When I started, I'd get 35-45 shooters. One shoot had just about 60 shooters. Yesterday we came real close to 80. 80 shooters with about 15 being new shooters. At least 15 people who were not shooting approached me and asked how do I get into this. I only see this getting bigger.

Combine that with crazy March heat and you get some unhappy people and a very, very long day. This is not as much fun for anyone. I want to fix this. I can't fix the weather but I can make the match run smoother.

I generally run 4 stages with a round count of ~45 per gun for the day. With this many shooters this backs up like crazy. I'm at a club where I could easily add stages, provided I get set up help.

I'm thinking I should throw in two more short stages as a buffer. The round count would go up, but would this speed things up? If I went to 8 stages with 5 squads I bet it would run pretty smooth but I do not have the support to get that done. Nor do I have the desire to run a match the size of a state sectional every month.

I also got the suggestion of breaking the squads into 2. Thus having 8 squads for 4 stages. If the next stage is vacant I'm all for this (which it may be with 6 stages). However this has never made much sense to me when you can't get to the next stage anyway. It might feel faster. But is it?

I need ideas.

[Hi-Power Jack]

My recollection of Marketing 101 is that if you

are selling more product than you have, RAISE

THE PRICE

Charge a bit more, and attendance will drop off

to what you can reaonably handle.

Or, use the extra income to pay some kids to

help you set up more stages ...

Just an idea

Jack

[Jim Norman]

You have 80 Shooters. ASK THEM TO HELP! They need to take ownership of the match.

[BillD]

You have 80 Shooters. ASK THEM TO HELP! They need to take ownership of the match.

I agree. You've got their emails, send out a notice about setup times and how the matches won't continue without help.

[SteelShooten]

Combine that with crazy March heat and you get some unhappy people and a very, very long day. This is not as much fun for anyone. I want to fix this. I can't fix the weather but I can make the match run smoother.

I generally run 4 stages with a round count of ~45 per gun for the day. With this many shooters this backs up like crazy. I'm at a club where I could easily add stages, provided I get set up help.

I'm thinking I should throw in two more short stages as a buffer. The round count would go up, but would this speed things up? If I went to 8 stages with 5 squads I bet it would run pretty smooth but I do not have the support to get that done. Nor do I have the desire to run a match the size of a state sectional every month.

I also got the suggestion of breaking the squads into 2. Thus having 8 squads for 4 stages. If the next stage is vacant I'm all for this (which it may be with 6 stages). However this has never made much sense to me when you can't get to the next stage anyway. It might feel faster. But is it?

I need ideas.

The good news is you must be doing something right to keep people coming back and drawing new shooters.

Our local match director is experiencing the same thing. It hit pretty hard in November and then with the sudden influx of nice weather, it seems nearly everyone came out to break the cabin fever.

We don't have an answer - yet. After looking at the problem and, at least for us, it comes down to how much time people spend in one line waiting to shoot.

To make people happier, there are have some choices:

1) Reduce the stage time/complexity. Shooters cycle through the stages you have more quickly. I'm not fond of this option

2) Add a side match

3) Add another stage (or two). This spreads people out in more lines.

Reducing the stage complexity will accommodate more people but the veterans will probably lament the 'good old days' and question whether the slight reduction in the new wait is now worth the simplified game. Since the stage design is one of the things that keeps people coming back, we opted to leave that as a last resort.

He's tried the side-match idea most of last year and it was not clear that it was siphoning enough people out of other lines to really make them happier. Given the long wait, they felt they needed to 'get in this line or I'll never get through'. The side match earned a lot of business but not until after people were finished with the match.

As I mulled these options with him, we thought customers will be happier if we added another stage or two (provided the support needed to do it is there). It does mean more set-up for the staff, so rather than make radical increases in the amount of effort, we plan to try adding a full stage next month and decide the next step after evaluating the results.

[J.Schmitt]

Lucas, I will be headed your way next month. I think that the idea of raising the price and pricing people out of the match does harm to the sport. I like the idea of the extra stage. I am implementing a new sign up sheet that will seperate new shooters and basically assign then to a veteran shooter on a squad who can give them stage prep and coaching.

Jay

[elkboy]

This is my third summer running a monthly 3 gun shoot. I like doing it..? When I started, I'd get 35-45 shooters. One shoot had just about 60 shooters. Yesterday we came real close to 80. 80 shooters with about 15 being new shooters. At least 15 people who were not shooting approached me and asked how do I get into this. I only see this getting bigger.

Combine that with crazy March heat and you get some unhappy people and a very, very long day. This is not as much fun for anyone. I want to fix this. I can't fix the weather but I can make the match run smoother.

I generally run 4 stages with a round count of ~45 per gun for the day. With this many shooters this backs up like crazy. I'm at a club where I could easily add stages, provided I get set up help.

I'm thinking I should throw in two more short stages as a buffer. The round count would go up, but would this speed things up? If I went to 8 stages with 5 squads I bet it would run pretty smooth but I do not have the support to get that done. Nor do I have the desire to run a match the size of a state sectional every month.

I also got the suggestion of breaking the squads into 2. Thus having 8 squads for 4 stages. If the next stage is vacant I'm all for this (which it may be with 6 stages). However this has never made much sense to me when you can't get to the next stage anyway. It might feel faster. But is it?

I need ideas.

Congratulations on your success! You are obviously building a fun match every month. Staging and clearing firearms and resetting seem to burn the most time at our matches. I try to consider those issues when designing the stages. As our numbers grow I am considering adding a stage but reducing the round count per stage. That will give us smaller squads and quicker stages. It also sounds like you could use more help. We knock $5 off for any shooter who shows up early and actually helps set up. I am considering raising our match fee by $5. If shooters break down the stages and get it put away, they get $5 back. If not, it gives me some extra money to pay some of our hungrier and devoted helpers for their efforts. Hopefully it will get us all on the road a little sooner. A wise man once told me "when you take over a leadership role, you should immediately start grooming your replacements". Slightly off topic but important to keeping matches going! Good luck and keep us posted on how your experiments work.

[webbo]

I currently shoot a rifle that costs -a lot- more than my truck. I am not going to price people out of the game, I'd have to stop shooting. I am working on stage ideas that will reduce the amount of reset time, but most of my targets are paper so there will be target pasting involved. I am new to grounding on safe, live guns also. I know I can get squads to clear these more efficiently, but I need the gun to be grounded in a convenient location, which I'm getting figured out.

Jay, new shooters are one of the biggest slow downs I've got. They are also the best thing out there for our sport. I greatly appreciate any help and input you have on the matter.

Because the last match went so long I'm not sure I'm going to get the same turnout this month. I can still implement changes to speed it up. I'll let you all know how it goes.

[Flexmoney]

If you can make more squads, that will speed things up. Do the math. (I've posted examples of this on the forum before)

You could raise the prices, but give a nice discount to those that show up at a set "work time".

[KentG]

You could raise the prices, but give a nice discount to those that show up at a set "work time".

This is your best solution. Raise the match fee $5 accross the board and let the set up crew shoot for free.

I presume you are having the last squad on a stage tear it down and the rest of the help put it away.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Kent Grewe

[Steve Anderson]

2 smartest things we ever did:

1. Announce the gate time and start the match when the stages are built.

2. Give each stage to an experienced shooter. This takes a lot of pressure of the MD.

Good luck!

[Jim Norman]

I would vote heartily against raising the price and discounting the match to workers. You'll probably get a number of people that we work for 5$, but you'll turn at least as many volunteers into 'why should I work for free when they pay X number to work' If you discount any, you need to discount all.

I would look to your shooters, ask them to design and build stages, they need to take ownership.

[webbo]

I have been giving free match entries to those that help with set up the day before. But I have not been advertising this. Either way it seems the first few shoots I get awesome help, and the rest of the year it is me and my right hand man.

In any case, set up is not the problem. Smoothing out the match is.

[Jim Norman]

Free equals an imbalance. The people that get the freebie are resented even subconsciously by the rest, when they realize this, they stop and the others never started.

Balance is always a hard time to have all stages run the same time. Easier to a point is a on gun than a multi. Take a look at pre-loading SGs. Are you running 2 gun stages or are you trying to make them all 3 guns? Three makes for more prep-time. Make your stages one and two guns.

[J.Schmitt]

Knowing this range and it's how it is set up i want to suggest having some long gun racks built. I am thinking that organizing the shooters gear will help. This in place of using spools. I am suggesting it for a couple of our other clubs. Thinking of 2 racks per stage. 16 guns each.

Jay

[Brian Payne]

A lot of the challenge comes from experienced shooters that are used to one gun matches, then helping at a 3-gun match. We have even seen this at major 3-gun matches. The mentality that it is unsafe to clear a weapon by someone other than the shooter and the RO kills a lot of time at multi-gun matches.

A lot of time can be saved by having a second RO pickup and clear an abandoned weapon and hold it at a side table until the stage is over. That allows the resetters the abiltiy to get started with scoring and resetting, sometimes even before the entire stage is completed. If the weapon is found in violation of safety rules, then the RO "freezes" reset until this can be shown to the shooter. Just saving 30 seconds per shooter for 80 shooters will save you 40 minutes for that one stage. Add that to four or five stages and it adds up quickly.

The same goes for scoring. In 3-gun it is unreasonable for the shooter to expect to see every target as it is scored. The stages are longer and some of the stage might be scored and pasted before the shooter even completes the stage. To have the taper stand by a target that has a penalty so the shooter can see it is reasonable, the shooter should trust the rest of the squad to handle the rest of the targets. Or the shooter may wish to have someone else as his/her official stand-in to check the targets as they are scored.

I have found that inexperienced shooters really only slow down a match by their lack of knowledge as to how to help the match run smoother. They need to be told to be on the start line ready to go when the stage is finished with reset from the prior shooter. Not wait for their name to be called, then run over to their gun bags and get their gear. They also need to be told that they need to assist with reset and taping, and then shown by example. There also needs to be some check and balance in place to make sure "everyone" contributes to stage reset. Inexperienced shooters may shoot slower than some of the more experienced shooters, but they seem to make up for it by their lack of lengthy physical gyrations at the "make ready" command.

I thought your last match was excellent. The stages were set up for fast reset for the most part, what slowed it down was lack of participation in reset for some shooters in the squads, and the fact that some of the RO's only allowed the shooter to clear all of his/her weapons before reset was allowed to start.

[J.Schmitt]

Last post delivered by the fastest resetter in the game

Additional to clearing abandoned guns. If the match chooses not to do this the other option Is statigical placement of abandon barrells to put all muzzells pointed into the ground. All shooters need to be clear that no one touches the gun but the shooter. The stage is scored, reset and the guns picked up on the way back under ro supervision. Abandoning on tables is just not effective unless the guns stay within the control of the shooter.

Jay

[Sarge]

Growth does not seem to be a problem for our USPSA matches. We had 91 shooters Sunday! It went smooth enough but if even one of the stages had been a bottleneck we would have been in trouble. My squad had 18 or 19 shooters on it!

[webbo]

Last post delivered by the fastest resetter in the game

Additional to clearing abandoned guns. If the match chooses not to do this the other option Is statigical placement of abandon barrells to put all muzzells pointed into the ground. All shooters need to be clear that no one touches the gun but the shooter. The stage is scored, reset and the guns picked up on the way back under ro supervision. Abandoning on tables is just not effective unless the guns stay within the control of the shooter.

Jay

With the grounding of on safe guns, I've done away with abandoning on tables with non-noteworthy exceptions. I should have more handgun dump bins before our next shoot and -so far- the barrels secured to the ground are working quite well for long guns. What do you have in mind for gun racks? The cowboys have gads of gun racks but they are all muzzle up racks.

I am planning on going over a "2nd RO" clearing grounded guns during the shooters meeting, as long as it suits the stage. As far as shooters needing to see the targets, I couldn't agree with you more Brian. If you want to see your targets, you need to keep up with the RO, the RO does not have to wait for you.

[webbo]

Free equals an imbalance. The people that get the freebie are resented even subconsciously by the rest, when they realize this, they stop and the others never started.

Balance is always a hard time to have all stages run the same time. Easier to a point is a on gun than a multi. Take a look at pre-loading SGs. Are you running 2 gun stages or are you trying to make them all 3 guns? Three makes for more prep-time. Make your stages one and two guns.

I have not advertised free match entries, though I do give them. I want to keep this sport for everyone. The best help I get is from college students who have to share at least one gun for the match. The guys with the nightforces and the SV's generally don't have an issue with the $20 entry fee.

I don't think I'll ever be able to make all the stages take the same amount of time, but I'll give it my best. We do pre-load sg's. I run mostly 2 gun stages but there are 3 gun stages every now and then. In my opinion, one gun stages are for one gun matches.

[J.Schmitt]

Yes, I mean the regular gun racks that hold the muzzle up. It will get shooters more prepped for the stage as their guns will be ready. I have used these to preload shotguns at other matches. Maybe go with chamber flags and make it mandatory. Order a bunch and have them for sale at the match if the preloaded sg in the rack won;t comply with range rules or just seems too unsafe. Ive seen chunks of yellow rope taped off on the ends used as flags as well.

This is getting me in line for the matches I run as well.

Jay

[spanky]

Tagging this thread for later, we've been averaging 60-70 at my club but had 90 this month.

[J.Schmitt]

We got hammered yesterday. 72 shooters about 14 new guys. At least most came with an experienced friend. We tried to simplify stages but squads were just to big. I am considerin a SKILLS builder match for the next one. Mostly single gun fundamentals. Also going to add a 5th overflow stage.

Jay

[Brian Payne]

Jay

To shorten the four main stages just a little, then add a fifth stage if possible, would make the most sense. The shooters still get to shoot a lot of ammo, and the fifth stage allows for the overflow of shooters and making the squads a little smaller.

This weekend for a fifth stage it could have been something as simple as one small bay with two MGM spinners, one for shotgun, the other for handgun. Short, fast, no reset, and the shooters get to have a good time laughing at each other. You might want to make it a Virginia Count stage or I might not have enough ammo left to finish the match.

[AFH]

Congratulations on running such a popular match. As someone else mentioned, get some help before burnout begins to set in. Seen it happen too many times!! However, to the original question.

Brian was correct in all he said regarding clearing weapons, etc., and all those changes/practices would help make things run smoother and faster. I don’t know how your match runs and the time available, but here are some calculations I use to TRY to make things run on time with respect to the number of stages, number of shooters, and the amount of time available. I hope this is worth reading, and not to mundane – seems a little tedious upon rereading it!

Some assumptions here are that you can have the first shot being fired at 9:00 a.m., that you want to be finished shooting at 4:00 p.m., that you want to have room for 80 shooters, that you limit shooting time (have a “time-out”), and that you are shooting on bays that allow for rapid movement from one stage site to another.

The time allowed gives you 420 minutes to run stages. You will need 10 min/stage for walk through, plus time to get shooters from one stage to the other. The optimum number of shooters/stage (my opinion) is between 10 and 13.

Since all shooters have to shoot each stage, you have maximum time of 5.25 min/shooter/stg (420/80), but that doesn’t allow for walk-throughs or transition between stages. Therefore, the more stages you have the less time/shooter/stg you have to work with. You can run the numbers, but in looking at the different options in your situation, I decided to use 6 stages in this example.

If you run 6 stages, you will need squads of 13-14 shooters to get to 80 shooters. Six stages will require 60 minutes of walk-throughs, and if you allow six minutes to get from stage to stage (5 transitions) you will need another 30 minutes. (420 min for 6 stages allows 70 min/stage including transition and walk through.) So, 420 min – 90 min, leaves you 330 minutes for your 80 shooters to be actively shooting on the stages. 330/80 gives you 4.125 min/shooter.

With 4 minutes per shooter, I would consider allowing 1.5 min for shooting and 2.5 min for resetting the stage. Using a lot of paper, you will probably still have to get your shooters to hustle.

Using more steel, scoring as much as possible while the shooter is progressing down range, increasing stage efficiency through design and RO practices can help with your time also. At the BRM3G, I have about 6 min/shtr and allow a 200 second time-out, leaving about 2.5 minutes for reset, but stage design and using a goodly amount of steel helps shorten reset. Having an RO (or a squad mom) make sure the next shooter is standing on the line ready to shoot when the RO with the clock gets back from the previous shooter helps a lot too!!

Another thought, adding a short stage will not shorten the overall shooting time for the match. Unfortunately, your day will not end until your slowest stage is over!

Good luck and thanks for running a match that is bringing so many new shooters into the sport.

Andy