Making 3gun Fun

[TeamGE]

The purpose of this thread is not to start a debate over which scoring format or set of rules is best, just to inform you of a plan that was thought up to solve some of the problems we are all experiencing in the huge growth of 3gun/multigun competition.

Now that the 2004 USPSA 3gun Nationals are over and gone, and all the hashing of the new rules has started, I find that a modification of these rules is necessary for 3gun to prosper in my local area. I have collected many ideas from a lot of shooters and purposed a few of these ideas to the local match directors that put on 3gun matches at club level. We need to make changes to USPSA 3gun rules so that all shooters (old and new) can understand them and we can have fun with 3gun.

There are two areas of most concern, scoring a 3gun/multigun match, and the handling of hot guns on multigun stages.

I am a fan of USPSA scoring, but it only works for one gun at a time. We have and are using software that works well (EasyWinScore), and until new software comes along, we need to use what we have.

Problem 1: It is not set up to score multigun stages, or more then one power factor at a time.

Solution 1: Lower major power factor for rifle to 150.

Pros: (.223 will make major, and there will be no need to have A-zone only targets for the 2nd and/or 3rd guns used on the same stage). Coarse design will be a lot easier on the designers and builders. Scoring will be a lot easier on the score keeper. The match will be scored and entered into EasyWinScore as a pistol match, with Open as Open, Limited as Limited, and Tactical as Limited 10. If one of the competitors guns used comes up as minor, all the guns for that competitor will be scored as minor. IMHO, a 3gun match with multigun stages should not be scored as three separate gun catches and then compiled into an aggregate score.

Cons: (The shooters using .308 and other calibers meeting major power factor scoring will loose that advantage). I don't see this advantage anyway, for more then one reason. The main one being if you look at the rules for multigun stages now, a pistol/shotgun dominant stage will have A-zone only targets for rifle, which is scored the same for major or minor. (I am all for a Heavy Metal division just for those few shooters that have to have their .308's).

Problem 2: Hot guns being "speed unloaded" either manually or shot empty into the berm before "benching/grounding" and transitioning to the next gun.

IMHO, this needs to stop. We have all seen the problems that come form this practice, and I do not need to go into all the details. We start stages with multiguns placed hot on the stage (and move more that 1 meter away), why can't we bench a hot gun safely in the transition to the next gun.

Solution 2: All benched guns must be pointed in a safe direction when benched and if necessary, containers used to control this direction. Even having the benched guns watched by someone on the squad till it is cleared could be implemented. There are many ways to make this possible and maybe a thread on ideas for this could be started. Shooters that AD while benching or clearing their guns will be DQ'ed.

Pros: (Safety) No more allowing guns to be shot empty in a matter that looks like and IMHO is unsafe gun handling. Manually unloading some of our guns on the timer is not practical and unsafe when your in a hurry.

Cons: (I don't see any)

As a final note for now,

I am a big fan of 3gun and plan on enjoying it for a long time. I am not trying to create a huge debate on this, and do not want to create a bashing thread on the rules that USPSA has come up with so far. Remember that the rules are in their infancy, but on the same thought, I am not willing to wait for USPSA to get the problems solved, and possibly loosing shooters to aggravation and safety issues. I have been apart of many innovative ideas that the shooters in my area have come up with to promote 3gun. One such promotion has been having rifle/shotgun side stages after our normal pistol matches. This gets the other guns out of the safe and out to the range. 3gun competition takes a huge amount of practice and discipline to master and there is no substitute for proactice, as most of you know. But new shooters need the time and place to practice each gun, one at a time, in a much slower, anticlimactic atmosphere. This also allows the more experienced shooters time to help the new shooter practice safely.

[George]

Right there with you, Beven. The 3 gun and long gun events that we hold at our club (Richmond, CA) use EZ-Winscore just as you mention and we have been doing it for quite a few years like that. If you do not go to IMG time scoring, that really is the only easy to do this at the club level. Our club used to have the same type of long gun side matches after the pistol matches back a long time ago (88-91) and it did exactly what you say it does, get the safe cleaned out

Lately we have stumbled on another option. Instead of a 3 gun match, have a rifle, shotgun match and leave the P shooter at home. It worked real well a couple months ago at our first trial and we are having another one on July 25th.

http://www.richmondhotshots.com/

I am now starting to think that your hot drop weapon transition suggestion may be the best way after all. Simpler is always better. Everyone has barrel props at their range and a padded barrel pointing into a berm isn’t that much harder to rig up and it has worked successfully at our club too.

--

Regards,

Edited June 30, 2004 by George

[mactiger]

Thanks for the input, Beven. Well done.

Troy

[ErikW]

Notice how in the shotgun divisions, there's a 20 gauge minimum, a power factor floor, and targets are scored Major only. Hint, hint.

[rhino]

The problem I see with any time-plus-penalties based scoring is that a small stage with a "problem" will hurt you too much in the overall match. That is, the time penalties incurred are not always commensurate with the overall value of that stage to the overall match. Five or ten extra seconds on a tiny stage will kill your overall time. Using Comstock scoring, you can blow a small stage and still do okay in the match.

[shred]

I'm all for simplifying the scoring, but time plus cuts out the "how fast can I go and stay in control?" Comstock coolness in which the value of shots varies continuously.

The downside is Comstock was tuned for pistol shooting and different point values may be needed for 3-Gun

Time+ is easier to score, but what else does it bring to the table?

[TeamGE]

EricWarren,

At first glance, it does look like 20g should be considered a minor power factor. But if you imagine trying to knock down heavy plates with 1/2 oz loads, you know it doesn't work most of the time. If someone wants to shoot a 20g, they are going to have throw 7/8 oz loads or higher to be at the same compeditive edge as the 12g guns, so I don't see any advantage or reason to change it's power factor rating. We need the smaller/lighter 20g shotguns for the smaller/lighter people in the sport (it sure knocks them around though).

rhino,

I do agree with you. There is no varying weight or value to the stages with time/plus scoring, and I feel that it promotes hosing instead of accuracy. This is why I am a fan of USPSA scoring. But, I do not want to bash IMG rules here. I shoot at alot of 3gun matches that use IMG scoring and it does simplify things enough to promote the sport. IMHO, IMG scoring should get the most credit for getting 3gun to where it is today.

This is exactly what we need to do with USPSA scoring. Make it simplier, easier to use and follow. Same thing for the rules. Lets get back to cut and dry, no nonsence, your in or your out rules. Safety rules are a no brainer. If the gun is pointed in a safe direction, nobody is going to get hurt, and guns do not go off by themselves.

[steve223]

and guns do not go off by themselves

AMEN

[uscbigdawg]

Hi Beven,

Simplifying the scoring would go a long way in increasing interest in our sport. Personally, as much I respect Comstock scoring for its acknowlegement of power and accuracy, it's not the most spectator friendly. You cannot determine who is ahead of whom until the match is over. Modifying TimePlus where in accuracy is given a bonus of less accurate shots (I should say less of a penalty) and even further reduction in penalty for major vs. minor would be something to consider:

A = 0 time added

B = .5 time added (major & minor)

C = .5 time added (major)/1.0 added (minor)

D = 1.0 time added (major)/2.0 added (minor)

That's just throwing numbers out, but I think the concept is there. Too, I'm not opposed to either using the new IPSC targets and/or the tombstone targets. Again, more spectator and non-shooting sponsor friendly.

Hot guns: I'm in total agreement that grounding loaded firearms is much safer than the sites that were shown this weekend (specifically for USPSA matches). At SMM3G this year, I think there were only a handful of DQ's compared to the 20 or so at US3GN. I really feel this is due to "pistol" shooters shooting a 3-Gun event and not a function of stage design.

I agree with everything that you're saying. Hope to see you at Norco on Saturday.

Rich

[TMC]

I'm with Beven on the grounding a hot gun and I brought it up at the meeting after the match. At the 3-gun nats a grounded gun was treated as hot until cleared so what's the difference if it is hot? If it doesn't go bang when it's put down its not going to while its sitting there untouched. A grounded gun didn't have anybody standing over them at the match when they were presumed hot, and judging by all the DQ's many still were and no one was hurt.

[uscbigdawg]

I'm with TMC. If you're going to treat them as hot guns, they might as well be hot guns. Another option to expedite shooter times is each on stage competitor assign a "range buddy" to clear their down range guns under the supervision of a third RO. This will "clear" the range faster. The only issue that I see with this is if the "range buddy" launches one while clearing. So, an option might be that the grounded gun is removed from the range so that scoring/resetting, etc. can continue and the CRO and shooter clear guns in an on stage "preload/unload" area.

Rich

[Flexmoney]

I totally agree with the ground of the guns. The speed unload (however performed) is troublesome. Clearly needs addressed.

On the scoring...

Time plus, is certainly easy. But, as mentioned...it presents a fixed hit factor.

I am in favor of keeping the scoring we now have...with some tweaking...

On power factor...

Why not use the power factor of the lowest ammo that you use in the match?

It makes zero difference in shotgun (guys shoot 12g, even though 20 makes Major). You have to knock down the steel no matter what. And, slug shots score the same on paper coming out of a 20g as they do coming out of a 12g. It's Wash. Major/Minor really doesn't matter here, does it?

So, on rifle and pistol...whichever turns in the lowest pf, that is what you go with. That might even level they field a bit for the he-man shooters (somewhat). A shooter with a .223 is Minor in pistol as well...he might choose to shoot 9mm. A shooter who make Major with the rifle, they might choose to shoot Major pistol too.

I think we ought to keep the pf where it is. We do have some new stuff coming that might make the grade for Major...without giving up much of the advantages of .223 I'd hate to stiffle that kind of innovation?

If it's not fun...nobody will play. (And those that spend the money that it take to do 3-gunning want/expect top notch venues.)

[TeamGE]

uscbigdawg,

I understand and agree with you on how time/plus scoring works and can be fine tuned to meet different stage designs and power factors.

Again, I am trying to fine tune the USPSA scoring format and rules, not dump it and change to a completely different format. Lets try to use one format at a time, and fix it. (seperate note) Check with JoJo or Jimmy about the match on 7-3-04, I think it has been canceled.

TMC,

Perfect analagy of a redundant safety rule, "we treat unloaded guns as if they are loaded anyway, so what's the difference".

uscbigdawg,

I don't think anyone but the shooter should clear their own guns, just for the reason of AD's. Who would be DQ'ed? The shooter or the guy clearing the gun?

Flexmoney,

Remember we are trying to keep this simple. If we keep .223 minor and make pistol minor, then to be competitive, a big equipment race to 9mm pistols is going to happen. Knowbody wants that. There is no need to change any of our equipment if we make .223 major. Also remember that we shoot alot of shugs out of our shotguns (way too much, IMHO) and major scoring is worth alot of points outside the A-zone.

[George]

Beven, I think what Erik is saying about his shotgun PF note is more akin to an “all major, all the time” approach where PF is disregarded as long as a specific minimum is achieved.

To that end, one of the most sensible USPSA based 3 gun scoring routines I have seen used at a large match before was declaring 150 or slightly lower as the PF floor, scoring the whole shebang major and calibrating the steel with a known PF load a little under the floor. If someone can’t take down steel with a wimpy pistol, they pay with mikes or multiple shots taken. With most factory 9mm ball getting roughly 140 PF in a 4” bbl, this isn’t that harsh.

Add a heavy metal class and you have the .308 shooters covered, they don’t need extra point values if they are their own division. It is also much closer to IMG run matches in PF and gun setup this way (who says pistol only based PF has to determine 3 gun scoring practice). Folks who specialize in 3 gun and go to more IMG style events can load optimize for it, folks who are primarily USPSA pistol competitors and want to use the same handgun/ammo combination, can live with it or not, at their discretion.

In this mode, you can also use EZ-Winscore just as it is like Beven suggested and revolver then gets assigned to heavy metal. To that end, you could still have a production division that actually gets scored minor. Let it be any safe and legal pistol caliber carbine and any 20g or larger Limited legal shotgun and follow all production rules.

Something for everybody and no new gear or software needed.

--

Regards,

[Flexmoney]

Flexmoney,

Remember we are trying to keep this simple. If we keep .223 minor and make pistol minor, then to be competitive, a big equipment race to 9mm pistols is going to happen. Knowbody wants that. There is no need to change any of our equipment if we make .223 major.

You'll have to help me out here...why the race to 9mm pistol (if the rifle is minor)? Capacity? I'm not sure I would switch from my Limited 40 (I might download it to Minor though).

What pistol does everybody shoot in the other 3-gun matches, with the 150pf? I know 9mm will get to 150pf.

Also remember that we shoot alot of slugs out of our shotguns (way too much, IMHO) and major scoring is worth alot of points outside the A-zone.

Right. If everybody shoots an AR in 223, then shotgun will be the same for everybody (just Minor hits instead of Major...no biggie?).

But, for the "he-man" rifle shooters...they get to score Major with their slugs. That, to me, would level the playing field a bit for them.

[Wakal]

Seems to me most of the problem with scoring has to do with rifle minor. Four people have been regularly bringing (on this very board) up a club that solved the problem....eighteen months ago...and ran TWO state championship USPSA matches using that system. Yet every time they post offering to explain it, they are met with deafening silence. This isn't rocket science, boys and girls...fix the scoring problem by FIXING (un)EzWinScore and the major/minor rifle problem goes away.

The "only A-zone paper" solution is pretty weak.

The solution to the "grounded gun" problem that the same club shamelessly stole from other 3-gun venues was the "safe weapons drop-off" setup. Either a table with "lips" for left/right stages, or a 10" by 4' padded tube grounded at a 45-degree angle in a tub full of sand for the fore/aft stages. Clearing barrel meets weapons rack.

One problem I have with the new 3-gun rules. Read the Shotgun rules, section 5.2.5.3.

Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. Any belt, or belts, intended to be used at any time during a match, must be worn for the start of each stage of the match. This rule is not intended to prevent a cartridge belt being moved around the body to allow easier access to cartridges during a course of fire.

Umm...OK. That means that I can't reconfigure my belt for a shotgun/pistol stage, or take the pistol holster off for a pure shotgun stange, or....move "any allied equipment" during a match.

So...everyone who took off their shotgun speedloader holster during the 3-Gun, or anyone who took the forearm shell holder off their, well, forearm...is guilty of violating this rule.

Discuss...

Alex

[Overkill]

I kind of like the all major or all minor rule. That would help make the 308/'06 more competetive.

I think the major rifles should get a scoring bonus too; my favorite is "single A zone hit scores 2 Alpha" . The whole double tap thing came to be as a result of the realities of pistol "stopping power". The idea that 308 to the A-zone is likely to need a follow-up is truly silly. Call me a traditionalist but I think our sport should preserve its martial roots.

WRT grounding hot guns. I've always thought it would be neat to have some bullet proof metal "muzzle" boxes made. You could put these boxes on a carpeted table where a transition will occur. The boxes could be oriented so that the muzzle would be pointed in the safest possible direction given the location of shooting areas down range. When its time to transition you just safe the gun and stuff the muzzle in this paded box. That seems like it would be triple redundant safe (safe direction, safed/untouched gun, safe backstop) and wouldent interupt the flow of the stage or encourage silly or dangerous speed-unload techniques.

[outerlimits]

my take on 5.2.5.3 was that it applied only to a pure shotgun m atch, not multi-gun...and yes, you bet i switched between stages, many times...

[benny hill]

While at the nat's last week , I was going to tell mike voiet about how the tx. state 3-gun was scored, but when I said " texas state 3-gun" he said he did not want to hear it. The guy's there can score pistol maj. & rifle minor on the same score card w/o any problems. USPSA should swallow their pride & ask how San Angelo can do this but they can't.

[TeamGE]

George,

you are probably right, I might of misunderstood Eric's "hint, hint" (sorry Eric if I did). As far as me understanding your last post, (George) I think you are talking about a match that changed rifle and pistol to a 150 PF for major. I purpose changing rifle only, 150 pf for major (I don't care where the floor for minor is). Pistol is still 125pf minor and 165pf for major. Otherwise, I think you are seeing the big picture.

Flexmoney,

With what I described above, you can see that shooting a 9x19 at say a 130 pf is a lot better then having to shoot a .40cal at 170pf, and you get 2 or 3 more rounds in the mag. Again, we are not changing the pf on everything, just .223, so it will make major. We need to keep the scoring as it is, so the point value is an anvantage to shoot major, and no equipment change is necessary. If one of your guns goes minor, then all of your guns are minor and this is where shotgun slugs would be worth less points for B,C, and D hits.

If I am understanding your post correctly, you might be confusing IMG rules 150pf floor for both rifle and pistol. In those type of matches, I know alot of shooters that have 9mm Limited pistols just for IMG matches.

[Wakal]

Thanks for trying, Benny! He is probably still annoyed about the whole so-called "bribery" issue

On Shotgun 5.2.5.3...the "provisional multigun" rules directly derive their authority from the pistol, rifle, and shotgun rules (see Section B of said provisional rules). Those rules mention where there are CHANGES from the basic rules...but do not change 5.2.5.3.

So according to the existing rules, a competitor may NOT adjust his gear, change the location of gear, or remove/replace gear during a match.

Please prove me wrong, as I think that is kind of silly...but IS THE RULES AS WRITTEN (currently, anyway).

Alex

[NMinzghor]

one of the problems I have seen, recently at Area 1 3 gun and from what I've heard this also happened at the Nationals is stages for rifle that are so hard (especially for standard) if you shoot the stage and actually attempt to hit all of the targets that the hit factors are so low that a gamer can just launch rounds down range, not even try to hit the 300 yd targets, do the stage in half time and have a higher hit factor. There needs to be a better balance between difficulty and speed so stages can't be gamed so easily with the rifle. IMHO.

[TeamGE]

Wakal,

This is a given, "Fix the scoring program and the minor/major problem goes away". The problem is I don't think we will see a "fixed" program for a long time, and I am not willing to wait. We need to make our matches run correctly now. I for one am tired of not knowing how I did in the match when the numbers don't add up, let alone listening to the other shooters complaints about the scores too.

I agree there are alot of the new rules that seem like they don't even apply or are completely unenforceable (like you pointed out in 5.2.5.3). Lets use the ones that work for now and let USPSA hash it out.

[TeamGE]

NMinzghor,

Coarse design is the problem on "blowoff" targets in low hit factor stages. Easy to fix by changing how many hard targets there are, or changing the point value of the hit and misses for those targets. This is not really a problem with the scoring program or rules.

[George]

Otherwise, I think you are seeing the big picture

Absolutely Beven, you are onto something good here and a few little brass tack level points for discussion don’t change the end result one iota.

In fact, I am seeing the possibility of scoring for 4, or even 5 divisions with major/minor applied in a reasonable manner as you suggested without a single change in EZ-Winscore. Clubs are not typically running sanctioned events at the local monthly match level so I see no rule issues that require any approval for a club to implement this immediately. Furthermore, the basics are so consistent with established procedure that newcomers from regular pistol competition will find it familiar ground, which is good when you are new to long gun handling in a competition environment.

Because I am evidently the de-facto MD for the July multi-gun match at out club I am starting to work on a plan for sensible weapon abandonment procedures at that match. To that end;

<Shameless plug mode on>

Long Gun Only Match, Sunday, July 25th, 2004

Leave the P-shooters at home!

Richmond Rod & Gun Club, Richmond CA.

$20 for Members, $25 Non-Members

Signups start at 8:30am

Shooting starts at 9:30 am

5-6 stages, shotgun & rifle only. Some multi-gun stages

USPSA rules & scoring in use

Open, Tactical, Limited & Heavy Metal divisions recognized

Heavy Metal = .308 irons, 12gauge pump, full power ammo

.223-.308 and PCC’s OK, Rifle shots to 180 yards (flashers)

No steel core rifle ammo

Shot and Slugs ONLY, No Buckshot

http://www.richmondhotshots.com/ for a map and calendar of events.

My contact info is available through the “about us” link if you need any additional info.

Hope to see a few of you there.

Geoffrey Linder (AKA “George”)

<shameless plug mode off>

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Regards,