tackdr1ver Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) A friend twisted my arm into shooting an IDPA match this past weekend. Now do not get me wrong, my first real match a year and a half ago was an IDPA match. I do not really mind IDPA but I just put more credence into USPSA. But that's neither here nor there. Anyhow here's my dilemma: Upon arriving at the match and signing in: All of the stages were blocked off. Meaning you could not go and walk the stages prior to the start of the match. Secondly, there was no walk through of each stage. We split into three squads and started on our respective stages. So my questions are these: 1. Is it ok/ethical to block off stages and prevent a walk through prior to the match starting? 2. Is it proper to NOT have a consolidated walk through with the MD or RO explaining the stages before beginning the match? 3. Is it OK/ETHICAL? for the MD and whoever set up the match with them be able to see (and in many cases shoot) the stages and walk them before the match and unlike everyone else and still shoot for score? These guys have been known to Shoot the stages they are going to use in a match in order to "Calibrate" them. Really?? Is that what they're calling it now? It would seem to me, the MD and other people who set up the match should not shoot for score. Seeing as they are disallowing everyone else to see the stages prior to the match. How is this fair to the other shooters? And to clarify, I am not whining. Despite not looking at the stages and not having the walk through I won the match(Despite the first reported scores going out in error and me in 3rd). So I am not crying over spilled milk. This all just seems well, odd. And I would appreciate some other opinions on the matter. What say you, people of BrianEnos.com? Edited February 28, 2012 by tackdr1ver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajg308 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Talk to us after you have been an MD for a few years. Preparing the match, building the match, working the match, is not an advantage. Blind stages are fine. Showing up after everything is done and armchair quarter backing is easier and more of an advantage. Being fresh because you have done no work is an advantage. This post bothers me, a lot. Edited February 28, 2012 by ajg308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mda Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 1. Yes, its IDPA 2. Yes, its IDPA 3. Definenty not fair they shoot for score when they get to see the stages. MDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CareyH Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Sounds kinda fun actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tackdr1ver Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Talk to after you have been an MD for a few years. Preparing the match, building the match, working the match, is not an advantage. Blind stages are fine. Showing up after everything is done and armchair quarter backing is easier and more of an advantage. Being fresh because you have done no work is an advantage. This post bothers me, a lot. Talk to who? Did you even read the ENTIRE post? Better yet, comprehend it? I have put in many long hours of set up and break down of matches, running shooters and getting my runs in. I call that part of the fun. If you call it work, it's time to quit. That argument doesn't hold much water with me. And basically you're saying it is ok for you to shoot the stages prior to the match because you're the MD? I find something really wrong with that. Your post bothers me A LOT. Edited February 28, 2012 by tackdr1ver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Talk to after you have been an MD for a few years. Preparing the match, building the match, working the match, is not an advantage. Blind stages are fine. Showing up after everything is done and armchair quarter backing is easier and more of an advantage. Being fresh because you have done no work is an advantage. This post bothers me, a lot. This post doesn't bother me at all, but it is somewhat surprising, especially since I have shot idpa matches at parma and your club does a wonderful job with creative stages and creative targets (love the skateboard wheel one!). I personally find that it's a significant advantage for my personally to show up early and help set up. I don't know if it's seeing the stages so much as having time to pull my head out of my azz and focus a little. On winter mornings I think the physical exercise of toting walls and barrels back and forth helps get the blood flowing, plus I just enjoy the camaraderie of socializing with the other shooters. Once I made a last-minute decision to show up to a local match, and got there just in time for the pledge, and was there for the walkthrough, but still shot like crap and never got my focus. I will say tho that I make more of an effort to get there early at my home club matches, just because it's an easy drive and if folks come from an hour away, I won't lose alot of sleep if they don't get up early enough to be there at the start of setup. That's part of the deal with being the host club. Still, plenty of guys from other clubs are helping us.... Now that I think about it, I'm starting to see what bothered you........... This is an all-volunteer sport, and if someone shows up for a local match so late that the stages are already set up, someone is not really volunteering. That's probably no big deal now and then, but if it happens all the time at all the matches... I guess I'd pity that person for having less fun and enjoyment than I get by helping with setup and teardown. Thank god for idaho... best people in the whole state. Edited February 28, 2012 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jar Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Blind stages are cool in concept, but there's no way to run them fairly. They're never blind for everyone. Not giving shooters a walkthrough and letting the setup team shoot for score is bogus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tackdr1ver Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Thank god for idaho... best people in the whole state. WHAT? OH. MY. GOD. I'm going to bed now... Edited February 28, 2012 by tackdr1ver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tactica Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I am not an RO or SO. I have only been shooting competitively since late 2010 season. I have only help set up one significantly large event... but you asked for what folks thought... I really like blind stages in IDPA. I think the steel, movers, action props and any stage mechanics such as doors, windows - etc, at minimum, should be field tested ahead of time to validate calibration, safety, shoot throughs and stress checked before a big match. I've seen really well prepared matches and I've seen those that could have used a bit more testing before the field went at them. Nobody likes seeing stages thrown out. In my experience, the top performing competitors are not going to need or be phased by a match director or officer 'calibrating' a course in advance. Moreover, my experience has been that the pressure undertaken by a MD, RO / SO with all of the various issues from prizes, trophies, managing officers, registrations, competitor questions, stage malfunctions, weather issues, parking, food, vendors, etc... is more than enough to keep the MD mind off of actually 'competing' and far from the top of their game. Frankly, I'm so thankful for what the men and women do in the RO / SO and MD 'volunteer' positions, that they have more than earned whatever minor bit of help they get in advance notice of what a blind stage will otherwise be like... Just my thoughts, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jar Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I agree 100% that stage props should be field tested prior to a major match. I also agree that being busy building and working the match is more of a drag on performance than any advantage. However, that's not at all true for blind stages. Knowing where the targets are instead of having to look for them saves a ton of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 It is very common to not allow shooters into the stage before their squad is ready to shoot it. In IDPA there are no individual walkthroughs at any time. I have never had a complete walkthrough of every stage prior to a match. That walkthrough is reserved for the SO's so they can focus on how the stage is run without 60 shooters asking a bunch of questions. At each stage the SO should read the COF and then give the shooters the ability to look at the stage, if that did not happen then that is wrong. Completely blind stages are not legal in IDPA MD's and staff sometimes shoot stages ahead of time to make sure they will work, especially if moving targets are involved. I think shooting the moving parts to make sure they work is fine but I do find the practice of shooting an entire stage or match to "test" it a bit over the top. What you witnessed or what I think you witnessed seems to fairly common and most seems to be on fair and legal within IDPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Koski Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Shooting blind stages is a riot. If it's "not fun," then clear your mind - grasshopper - and enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Shooting blind stages is a riot. If it's "not fun," then clear your mind - grasshopper - and enjoy. They are not legal so you should not be shooting them at an IDPA match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajg308 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Setting everything else aside and speaking of fairness. How is it fair to expect someone to setup a match and not shoot or to shoot for no score? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glock3422 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 How much was the prize money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 They are not legal so you should not be shooting them at an IDPA match When did they stop allowing them? I have even shot a sanctioned match (stages approved by the AC) that had them. They can be fun, if the RO is not trying to break his "old" record for giving PE's but you can't make it fair for everyone. Even if you don't have shooter "A" telling his friends what to expect, as a guy waiting to shoot the stage you can hear (gun shots) what the different target arrays are, unless your the first guy and have an unfair disadvantage. One other thing, if you are looking for a stage design that can take forever to run, you should really look into blind stages. They take longer to setup and tear down, run, score and tape, all while not having the rest of the squad help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueridge Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 A friend twisted my arm into shooting an IDPA match this past weekend. Now do not get me wrong, my first real match a year and a half ago was an IDPA match. I do not really mind IDPA but I just put more credence into USPSA. But that's neither here nor there. Anyhow here's my dilemma: Upon arriving at the match and signing in: All of the stages were blocked off. Meaning you could not go and walk the stages prior to the start of the match. Secondly, there was no walk through of each stage. We split into three squads and started on our respective stages. So my questions are these: 1. Is it ok/ethical to block off stages and prevent a walk through prior to the match starting? 2. Is it proper to NOT have a consolidated walk through with the MD or RO explaining the stages before beginning the match? 3. Is it OK/ETHICAL? for the MD and whoever set up the match with them be able to see (and in many cases shoot) the stages and walk them before the match and unlike everyone else and still shoot for score? These guys have been known to Shoot the stages they are going to use in a match in order to "Calibrate" them. Really?? Is that what they're calling it now? It would seem to me, the MD and other people who set up the match should not shoot for score. Seeing as they are disallowing everyone else to see the stages prior to the match. How is this fair to the other shooters? And to clarify, I am not whining. Despite not looking at the stages and not having the walk through I won the match(Despite the first reported scores going out in error and me in 3rd). So I am not crying over spilled milk. This all just seems well, odd. And I would appreciate some other opinions on the matter. What say you, people of BrianEnos.com? I'll try to simply answer your questions as clearly as I can. Just so you (and others reading)know I am an RO and SO for USPSA and IDPA respectively. 1) It is allowed that stages are not "open" for walkthrough prior to the match. 2) It is most common that the SO handling the stage reads the requisite stage briefing and allows a walkthough by the squad. 3) I am torn over the match administrators shooting stages that are "blind" to the rest of the shooters. There is a need to make sure stages work and the administrators have just as much right to enjoy a match as the rest of the shooters. If it was not allowed for the squad to walkthrough the stage after the stage briefing, then I would not be happy. That said as long as all the shooters were under this restriction I would not have a problem with that. The point that you bring up is that those who setup the match are not "blind" to the stage setup, which is an interesting point. My view is that it cannot be helped that those who setup the stages know the layout, and they still deserve to enjoy shooting the match. I am glad that you shot the match well, and hope that your concerns do not prevent you from participating in future matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 They are not legal so you should not be shooting them at an IDPA match When did they stop allowing them? I have even shot a sanctioned match (stages approved by the AC) that had them. When they issued the rules addendum. Appendix SIX - IDPA Organization Additional language to F. Sanctioned Matches. page 63 Blind stages are not allowed for use in sanctioned matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 So my questions are these: 1. Is it ok/ethical to block off stages and prevent a walk through prior to the match starting? 2. Is it proper to NOT have a consolidated walk through with the MD or RO explaining the stages before beginning the match? 3. Is it OK/ETHICAL? for the MD and whoever set up the match with them be able to see (and in many cases shoot) the stages and walk them before the match and unlike everyone else and still shoot for score? These guys have been known to Shoot the stages they are going to use in a match in order to "Calibrate" them. Really?? Is that what they're calling it now? 1. I have no problem with that. 2. Was there a WSB? If yes, no problem. 3. If they're walking the stage and no one else is allowed to, IMO, that is cheating. However, if each squad gets to walk the stage when they get to it, I see no problem. Many times a stage designer is so caught up in what they built, they fail to see a sweet spot or other ways to shoot the stage that is better than the designer's chosen method. In your post, I interpret "calibrate" to mean "cheat". I stopped shooting IDPA. Too many SOs have no clue what they're doing. Plus, I prefer a sport that allows imagination over one that specifies how to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Watson Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I don't consider it ethical for those who set up a blind stage to shoot in competition with the regular entrants who go into it without walkthrough. No reason they should not shoot it to debug it, you can get too smart and design in PE and DQ traps and they should be eliminated before the regulars go through. But their scores should be tabulated separately and trophies or bragging rights awarded separately. Especially in a match with all stages run blind. Which, by the way, seems a tremendous burden on the setup crew. We handled one blind stage at my last shoot as follows. MD and SOs set up a blind stage and shot it "open," knowing what was where. The regular entrants shot it blind. The entrants reshot it open. Everybody moved on to open stages for the rest of the match. Aggregate scores were tabulated only for the open stages, including the one that started out blind. The blind stage results were listed separately with the staff DNS. I could not think of another way to handle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broadus123 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Blind stages are no big deal. IDPA is 18 shots max. You have @ 5minutes to look the stage over before your group starts shooting. It isn't like USPSA, there is usually only one way to shoot the stage. Have you ever been to a state match ? The ROs shoot the first day. If you set the match up you will get more time looking it over ! So what ? You also have more time to get confused as well. If you don't like how a match is run start your own ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I think there may be some confusion in this thread- I interpret a "blind" stage to be one where the shooter has no idea where targets are prior to the buzzer going off. No viewing of the stage with the shooters in the squad. I absolutely don't like these stages and my club never does them... at least for score. Sure in a real gunfight you won't know where the bad guys are but this is a freaking game that is scored... and if people say don't worry about the score or what is the prize money- then why do they add up each stage and post results after matches? To the OP. We usually don't allow walk throughs prior to our club matches- only because we are setting up and doing the SO briefings right before the match. If we are set up early we let shooters check out the stages- no issue. We've run sanctioned matches and let shooters watch the stages in advance as long as they don't interfere with set up/running the stage. They can come a day early and walk through till their heart's content on our major matches... as long as their aren't shooters in the pit. Here's the tricky part. In IDPA we usually allow shooters to "check things out" after the COF is elaborated for the shooting squad... problem is there is no specified time per the rule book as in USPSA. Further more, I've been to major sanctioned matches where the SOs would not let the shooting squad see the targets from the actual shooting positions. Not really a blind stage but one where you couldn't see the relative positions of non threats/ hardcover from P1 (low cover for this particular case). I see an issue with this as the people that set it up had to have seen the stage from the start position. I've run several club matches and large sanctioned matches.... we try to let everyone see what they need to see. It does get tricky when you have large squads that want to take more time to come up with a plan.... especially when you have some guys that will stay in a position for a couple minutes checking things out... potentially preventing other shooters from seeing more.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GForceLizard Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 1. Is it ok/ethical to block off stages and prevent a walk through prior to the match starting? 2. Is it proper to NOT have a consolidated walk through with the MD or RO explaining the stages before beginning the match? 3. Is it OK/ETHICAL? for the MD and whoever set up the match with them be able to see (and in many cases shoot) the stages and walk them before the match and unlike everyone else and still shoot for score? 1 & 2 are well covered above as legal. There does not seem to be any controversy that in IDPA this is ok. #3 Calibrate steel and activators, good. Shoot the stage? Not good. Being able to get a better look at stages because you help set them up? It's a volunteer activity. If you think it's an advantage, help set them up. Not a problem, it's good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) #3 Calibrate steel and activators, good. Shoot the stage? Not good. Being able to get a better look at stages because you help set them up? It's a volunteer activity. If you think it's an advantage, help set them up. Not a problem, it's good. GForce- I agree with you a little bit on this. However paying customers should be treated fairly. I've seen people get screamed at for simple things such as taking a knee during a walk through. That being said I'd much rather "just shoot" a match and not have to help- who wouldn't??? Checking stage props and how a stage will actually work prior to a match is fine. Shooting the exact stage for practice- not so good. I am a customer and MD/SO. In each role I like to be treated like an adult. Edited February 28, 2012 by lugnut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) my responses are in red A friend twisted my arm into shooting an IDPA match this past weekend. Now do not get me wrong, my first real match a year and a half ago was an IDPA match. I do not really mind IDPA but I just put more credence into USPSA. But that's neither here nor there. Anyhow here's my dilemma: Upon arriving at the match and signing in: All of the stages were blocked off. Meaning you could not go and walk the stages prior to the start of the match.If IDPA purports itself to be some sort of simulator for theoretical real world/real life self-defense encounters...well...NO bad guy is ever going to give you a walk through before he mugs you. Secondly, there was no walk through of each stage. again, there are no walk through's in real life.We split into three squads and started on our respective stages. So my questions are these: 1. Is it ok/ethical to block off stages and prevent a walk through prior to the match starting? I don't have a problem with that 2. Is it proper to NOT have a consolidated walk through with the MD or RO explaining the stages before beginning the match?Look! You say you have been shooting matches for a year and a half. Both IDPA and USPSA are or should be big boy sports. That is after all a lethal weapon you have on your hip. If there is a written stage briefing (WSB) posted there (there should be), and you can't figure out how to shoot the stage based on a well written WSB....then either the MD's or match staff sucks at writing WSB's....or ...maybe you should rethink carrying that gun on your hip. 3. Is it OK/ETHICAL? for the MD and whoever set up the match with them be able to see (and in many cases shoot) the stages and walk them before the match and unlike everyone else and still shoot for score?If they are shooting it once as like a practice run and then a second time for score, then YEAH! I have a problem with that. If they are shooting the poppers to check for calibration and air gunning to look for shoot throughs, I do NOT have a problem with that. These guys have been known WHOOOA! There Nelly! Slow your roll. Says who? You do know that heresy evidence is not admissible in court for a reason. I wouldn't put too much faith into what the shooting circle rumor mongers sayto Shoot the stages they are going to use in a match in order to "Calibrate" them. Really?? Is that what they're calling it now?They can call it whatever they want to call it, or whatever some poop disturber called it to egg you on enough to come here on BE to pitch your bitch. It would seem to me, the MD and other people who set up the match should not shoot for score. Seems to me we already had a thread on this less than six months ago.Seeing as they are disallowing everyone else to see the stages prior to the match. How is this fair to the other shooters?Life is not fair. Even less fair in a gunfight, I suppose. And to clarify, I am not whining.You're basically trying to out a club's leadership on the internet as being a bunch of cheaters. My suggestion is for next time, if there is a next time, is to just MTFU and ask the MD in person about their pre-match procedure and get the straight poop straight from the horse's mouth. Despite not looking at the stages and not having the walk through I won the match(Despite the first reported scores going out in error and me in 3rd). So I am not crying over spilled milk.If you were a MD of this match and some other shooter was calling you a cheater, you might think differently. As A USPSA and Steel Challenge MD, I can tell you that rarely are our scores correct the first or second time they get emailed out. This all just seems well, odd. And I would appreciate some other opinions on the matter. What say you, people of BrianEnos.com? Edited February 28, 2012 by Chills1994 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts