kimber45 Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 This incident just happen at our club today. Apparently, after going through the the RO walk thru and before the match started some gamer cut a port in one of the walls, of course making it easier to engage some of the targets. This wasn't noticed until the guy who set the stage up was running squad through. The stage designer was to say the least really pissed off, which I don't blame him. Unfortunately. The culprit was not caught. Some of RO's and I were discussing the punshiment if we had caught the guy or gal. Some were leaning toward match DQ but there were some who thought a stiffer penalty whould be justifed. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Well, if you don't know why they did it (and without more information, we have no idea either), it could be anything from they thought there was supposed to be a port there to being too short/tall/wide/thin to shoot it any other way to just plain lunacy or cheating.. MDQ is about all you can assess on the spot within the USPSA rules. You can move to have Sedro bring them up on disciplinary charges, or your club could ban them for willful destruction of property or something as well, but those aren't in the rules as-such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimber45 Posted June 28, 2004 Author Share Posted June 28, 2004 The MD asked the Stage designer if that part of the fabric wall had a port and the designer said NO. We use lot of black fabric for creatng walls. Who ever did this cut the fabric with a knife and then stapled it open. Since the MD nor the designer made the change it had to be someone trying to game the stage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwalker Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Stake him out on the ground, cover with honey and let the ants slowly chew him to death... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimber45 Posted June 28, 2004 Author Share Posted June 28, 2004 You got to have it bad, if you have to cheat at a local match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tman33_99 Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 I see two rules that would cover this. 14th ed 4.4.1 (2004 4.5.1) Which basically states that a competor should not modify the range, surface or props, etc. The 2004 edition lists a penalty of one procedural per occurance. (14th ed has no penality listed) The 2nd I see is 14th ed US 10.4.2 (2004 10.6.2) which reads The range officailas shall have complete authority over all persons on the range. A competitor who fails to obey the officials instructions and directions pertaining to safety or competitive issues, or behavior deemed to likely bring the sport into disrepute, such as those listed above, may lead to disqualification from the match or banishiment from the range. Most cases of modifing a range would be slight movement of a target or prop and would only justify a procedural. But to cut a hole in a wall creating a new port w/o authorization of the RM or MD I think can definately fall under 10.4.2. I think anything more than a match DQ should be reserved for a repeat offender. Travis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 In general terms, if it was a major modification (e.g. intentionally cutting a hole in a wall), then there's no doubt a match DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct under Rule 10.6.1 would be justified if the culprit was a competitor, or expulsion from the range under Rule 10.6.2 if the culprit was another person. And I agree with Shred that such an incident should be reported to your Regional HQ (e.g. USPSA), if the person who did it could not offer a good reason for doing what he/she did. For "lesser" incidents of interfering with a stage (e.g. breaking off a tree branch which is flapping in the wind), the following would apply: 4.5.1 The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural foliage, constructions, props or other range equipment (including targets, target stands and target activators) at anytime. Violations may incur one procedural penalty per occurrence at the discretion of the Range Officer. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 I agree with Vince. Cutting a hole in the wall is a major offense, and warrants a DQ. It's just plain cheating. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Another great reason USPSA needs to institute the Tunnel of Wedgie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Should this miscreant be identified, he should be made to MD for an entire year! (ouch!) Seriously though, a match DQ (at a minimum) is in order, and the I agree with Troy that the matter should be referred to the Sectional Coordinator (and national) for possible banishment from the range if a plausible excuse is not presented for their actions. There is no place in OUR sport for blatant disregard or contavention of the rules!!! They are there to promote a level playing field. Aside from this issue, it is also disrespectful to the course designer who spent a lot of time coming up with what they thought would be a challenging COF. It is a slap in the face that requires another to the testic#@$r region of the offender. But I digress...I have fallen to impure thoughts of vengeful tactics that should be left to the days of the Spanish Inquisition. It is just disheartening to hear of such things in our sport. I've gotta have a drink and settle down!!! Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 I agree with Vince on all accounts (yes I sometimes agree with you Vinnie ). Another great reason USPSA needs to institute the Tunnel of Wedgie. But what the h&ll is "The Tunnel of Wedgie" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 What if it was someone in the setup crew who made a mistake, then was too embarrassed to admit it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 What if it was someone in the setup crew who made a mistake, then was too embarrassed to admit it? How would you know? Hey, it might have been a woodpecker Section 10.6 can only be applied when the perpetrator is known and where unsportsmanlike conduct is deemed to be the intent, failing which Sections 2.3 or 4.6 apply. But what the h&ll is "The Tunnel of Wedgie" ? You had to ask? A wedgie is when somebody grabs your underpants (while you're in them), and lifts them quickly and vigorously skywards, with the intent of making you sing soprano, at least temporarily. And I think we might need a Euro-translator if Eric keeps making posts like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 What if it was someone in the setup crew who made a mistake, then was too embarrassed to admit it? At our range we use sections of stockade fencing to build courses. A lot of them have ports cut in, some in the right place, others not. When we have a port in the "Wrong Place" we generally cover the offending port with a No-Shoot or two. On occassion, I have seen said N/S get torn off, no one notices, the course is changed, no foul as no "Evil Intent". I have seen where a port has a drop out closure that was supposed to be closed at the start of the course, since no-one on the preceeding squad thought to mention it to the next squad and no one cought it in the walk-thru, and yes, it was written in, we had to attempt top find when the eror occured and reshoot the lessor of the two groups. Why the lessor, because its a local match and if there are 60 people, 40 of which shot it wrong, 10 shot it right and the last 10 noticed the error, it was the decision to reshoot the first 10 in the interest of time, the alternate being to toss out a perfectly good, enjoyable stage. The error of the set-up crew at a local match is one that can occur often, we are under time constraint to build a match in as little as 2 hours, then de-bug it, register the shooters, squad them, then spend 6 hours shooting the match and then tear it all down and put it away till next month. That this occurs so rarely is the amazing part. Unless the port appeared in the middle of the match and unless it created a safety hazzard, i would chalk it up to set-up error and get on with life. In my above example from our matches, if we saw someone remove the N/S or make some other change without coming to hte MD first, we would take action. Usually it would be a quiet "Why" conversation on the side. If the shooter was obviously doing it to game, I would have no problem with a DQ for USC, if it was because he "Thought" there was a safety problem, or that he was correctiong an earlier ommision, I would not DQ, but would ask that in the future, he come to the MD. The light approach usually works best and brings people back, the heavy hand will drive people away. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazos Custom Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Might only be a case of semantics, but I hate seeing this type of behavior referred to as "gaming". It is cheating plain and simple. Gaming is finding the best way to shoot the course of fire within the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 No question that IF you caught the shooter it would be a DQ. I would give serious thought to not allowing the shooter to come to that range anymore. You don't need people like that. Big problem is you don't know who, when, or why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 If you don't know who did it, it is moot. Everyone knows it should be a MDQ, it is what happens after that, which is in question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeeper Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 This sounds so brazen that I doubt it was really an attempt at cheating. I mean that would take some big nuts to go through that much trouble. I would tend to suspect someone seeing a safety hazard or misreading a stage descritpion and "fixing" it. Then being to embarrased later to admit it. If it was cheating then a club or section wide ban for a year is appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Several of you have mentioned it could be someone who made a mistake, or who found an "safety problem" and fixed it. I don't know about y'all, but if it were me, I'd ask someone, like the MD or RM, before I just changed a stage. Things on stages can get changed accidentally, sure, but cutting a hole in a wall doesn't seem like an accident to me. Bob has it right--this isn't gaming (his definition of gaming is spot on), it's cheating. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Since it happened befor the first shooter shot, everyone got to "cheat". It was wrong of whomever to make a change without notifying or asking the MD, but Stuff happens. I would err on the side of; it may have been a preceived safety situation and the shooter/worker thought he was helping. He goofed, should have gone to the MD. Agreed. If it occurred after the match started and several squads had shot, that would be a major difference. Let's not be so quick to throw people out till we know the whole story. All three sides, what he said, what he said and what really happened. Jim (the new voice of reason) Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeeper Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 How big of a match was this. I fix stuff at our local matches all the time without others knowing it. I move targets and walls constantly to correct 180's and lines of fire. Of course I also help setup anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 Several of you have mentioned it could be someone who made a mistake, or who found an "safety problem" and fixed it. I don't know about y'all, but if it were me, I'd ask someone, like the MD or RM, before I just changed a stage. Things on stages can get changed accidentally, sure, but cutting a hole in a wall doesn't seem like an accident to me.Bob has it right--this isn't gaming (his definition of gaming is spot on), it's cheating. No doubt about it. A flap or cover falling off or being inadvertently removed from an existing port is one thing, but cutting a new hole ("carving a niche"?) is a capital offence. New props required: 1 horse, 1 very high tree, 1 very short rope ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 I have a couple of questions regarding the construction of your walls. You mention "Black Fabric" Do you use new wall covering over your frames each match? If you do, then it would of course be obvious that the port was "New", if you however use the old walls with pre-existing ports is it possible that no one cut a new hole and that a flap or cover simply came undone? I would be very careful in making accusations as to someone cheating. This is on the whole a very small community. If you are a cheater or a general screw-up, you won't have many places to go to that haven't heard of you. Likewise if you are falsely accused, you will have that stigma attached and it will follow you, wrongly. The real question is I suppose; does anyone really know what happened? Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeeper Posted June 29, 2004 Share Posted June 29, 2004 I would take this to mean that Jim was the guilty party. He is a well known cheater I once saw him use a GE Minigun in a match and claim he was shooting "production". Another time I saw him use a jetpack to get above the walls and shoot over them. He needs to be banished from all shooting competitions for all time. :) I dont know what you mean about rumors getting started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Being part of the setup crew and finding flaws and fixing them requires alterations to the course description, or at the least calling in the MD to clue him in on the change. When we are done building a stage we invite the MD to "bless" the stage. We stage builders aren't perfect, but the MD is closer than we are and what he says stands as true. I wouldn't change anything in a course desinge without letting the MD know what I have done. I may have a good idea or a sh*tty one, but it's not up to me to make the call. I'm with Bob on the cheating thing. And if you have to cheat go shoot against the kindergartners..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now