10ring Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 For those of you who have switched from Win231 to WST, what were the reasons that made you switch? (as it applies to 45acp and 40s&w loads) I've been busy trying to find a replacement powder to use in my USPSA Limited class loads in 40s&w loaded long. The powder I was using for this application was VV N-320 but the cost and availability just got to be too much pain in the @$# for me. So far I've tried Win231, Hodgdon Tightgroup, and just starting to try WST. So far I'm thinking of staying with Win231 since that's what I like for my 45acp 200 gr lswc loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted June 27, 2004 Share Posted June 27, 2004 For years I've used 5.8g of WW231 over a 200g LSWC bullet in 45acp. I switched to 4.8g of WST over the same bullet for the following reasons: 1. WST burns much cleaner than WW231 2. WST gives me a "softer feeling" recoil impulse 3. WST isn't nearly as temperature sensitive as WW231 WW231 is a good powder but in my opinion WST is the BETTER of the two powders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 I agree 100% with Chuck on this one. I switched from 231 to WST when I was getting unburned flakes of 231 under the ejector of my 625. The WST was the answer in .45, and I find it is great in .40 as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek45 Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Yep, and it seems less smokey too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted June 28, 2004 Share Posted June 28, 2004 Same as above. Less powder for same velocity = less recoil. Less powder for same velocity = more pressure = less residue as the powder is consumed better at more pressure. Less powder = less money = more shooting best reason of all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10ring Posted June 28, 2004 Author Share Posted June 28, 2004 Thanks for the input guys. I'll continue to give it a closer look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyro Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 10ring, chuck d pretty much has it covered... I've been shooting WST in .40 for about a year now and IMHO it think its the best powder I've used. I have compared 231 to WST shooting alternating loads and can definitly say that WST shoots much softer than 231. It' cleaner, less smoke and also gives GREAT chrono numbers. I think the reason it gives such good chrono numbers is that it is a low density powder that fills the case more than others (this also helps in looking for double charged cases) and it reaches its prime pressure to get a good consistant burn. I think that you will be more than satisfied with WST if you give it a try.... tyro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soligen Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 WST sounds like a good powder and I too should giveit a try, but I wen't to the Wnchester relaoding data and didn't see any loads for 9mm. Is this powder not appropriate for 9mm? (I'm currently using 231) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 [slightThreadDrift] Could anyone compare the difference in that un-quantifiable quality called "felt recoil" between WST (never used it) and Clays? (Regular old Clays.) Or WST and 320? be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted June 30, 2004 Share Posted June 30, 2004 Hey what about WSF? I have been using it in .40 s&w for 3 years now, I use lead bullets to practice with and Jacketed for match use. "Felt" recoil is very tolerable and even with lead cleanlyness is not an issue, I generally run 500 rounds through the limited gun between cleanings no matter what I am shooting. With lead I use 5.4 grains of WSF commercial brass and winchester small pistol with an OAL of 1.185 in my Para-Ordnance P16-40 Limited these loads shoot better than I do and make 167,000 PF. I can not remember the load for jacketed bullets for I don't load them near as often, I will have to consult my load list. Memory thinks it is about 6.3 or 6.2 I am getting low on my last 8 lb jug of WSF and will get 1 lb of WST and compare. Good Luck Hopalong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 Could anyone compare the difference in that un-quantifiable quality called "felt recoil" between WST (never used it) and Clays? (Regular old Clays.) Or WST and 320?be For jacketed or plated bullets, stick with Clays, or 320. WST is good, but not as soft. It would be worth considering if you load short, and will have too much pressure with Clays. WST shines with lead. It smokes way less, and may be cleaner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 1, 2004 Share Posted July 1, 2004 In 40, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George D Posted July 2, 2004 Share Posted July 2, 2004 For 45acp lead loads I had the same experience as Chuck D. I also used it for lead loads in 38 and 44 revolver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted July 2, 2004 Share Posted July 2, 2004 Could anyone compare the difference in that un-quantifiable quality called "felt recoil" between WST (never used it) and Clays? (Regular old Clays.) Or WST and 320?be I have been using WST for about 8 months now for my .40 full length SV limited gun. I load 5.1 grains under a west coast plated 180 grain RNFP, 1.200 OAL, and winchester primers. Gives me just about 169 pf average and it burns extremely clean at this pressure level. I bought an 8lb jug just recently for $112.00 including shipping and hazmat. I have been hearing about how much better N320 is because it shoots softer then anything else so I broke down and ordered a 1lb. bottle of N320 that cost me $24.00 at the same place. Tonight I did a side by side comparison of equal PF loads of N320 and WST and I saw NO difference in perceived recoil. The ES was a little tighter with the VV powder but not enough to justify the added cost and hassle of finding it. Maybe I am just not good at discerning the difference in recoil .......I can say that I have noticed a considerable difference in recoil between equal PF loads for .45acp using WST and clays but have yet to try clays for .40sw so I cant give a comparison of those two. Oh well....maybe I can sell off or trade the 1lb bottle of N320 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyro Posted July 2, 2004 Share Posted July 2, 2004 BE, Could anyone compare the difference in that un-quantifiable quality called "felt recoil" between WST (never used it) and Clays? (Regular old Clays.) Or WST and 320? I have not used Clays or N320 so I can't give any comparisons.... sorry hopalong, I started out with WSF, I've tried N340, Silhouette and 231 in .40 shooting Lead... IMHO, out of the powders listed above, WST is the best. It smokes less with lead and I think it is the cleanest (I've shot nearly 1000 rds before cleaning). Please let me know of your findings when you do your comparisons. All other forum members that have used WST, Hopefully some of you can help me out with a few questions.... I have only been using WST in .40 with LEAD 175gr. and 200gr. bullets and WSP primers with mixed brass. 1) Can anyone offer any comparisons between using WSP and WSR primers using WST with all other components remaining the same. 2) Can anyone provide any info on using WST with Jacketed bullets ? I'd like to know your basic recipe and you thoughts on its performance. A) I would like to know type of Bullet used and its weight. (MG, Zero etc.) Powder charge, (or your recommended starting charge) C) Type of primer used (primarily small pistol or small rifle) D) Chrono results if possible. Thanks, Tyro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted July 3, 2004 Share Posted July 3, 2004 In 40, right? Mostly I have not tried Clays in .45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mullet Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 WST is definatly the best powder I have used in the .38. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted July 14, 2004 Share Posted July 14, 2004 I've only ever tried WST and Titegroup, and only with lead bullets, in .40 and .45. That said, I've found Titegroup produced a tremendous amount of smoke with lead bullets, while WST did not. Loading with WST, I'm able to use smaller charges than are listed for W231, I get good consistency over the chrony (SDs of 10fps or less over a 10 shot string), the loads are as accurate as I am able to measure, and I can buy an 8 lb keg for $98 from a local supplier. I don't see any good reason to mess around with anything else, yet. 4.6gr WST under a 175gr lead .40 loaded to 1.190" makes about 170 PF out of my 6" limited gun. DogmaDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkushner1 Posted October 3, 2004 Share Posted October 3, 2004 Dogma: I am using WST to load .40 for the first time. I have used TG primarily. Anyway, I am loading 4.7 grains of WST using a 180 grain lead flat nose, OAL 1.190. Your getting 170PF out of a 6" inch Ltd. gun. I will be using this round in a 5" 1911 and in my CZ IPSC ST which has a barrel length of 5.4". I am using a lead bullet which will help, but am somewhat concerned I wont make 165PF on the chrono with 4.7 grains. Any thoughts. TY Jkushner1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyro Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 jkushner1, I've been using WST in 40 cal. Para's (one with a factory bbl and the other with a Schuemann bbl) with lead 175gr and 200gr bullets and I recently used it with Master Blaster 180gr. all loaded to 1.148 OAL. With the 175 & 180's I've been running around a 4.7 which gives me around a 167-168 PF depending on the gun. For the 200gr., which gives a little softer felt recoil, I've benn running around a 4.1gr of WST. These loads work for me but YMMV, so work up your loads carefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted October 4, 2004 Share Posted October 4, 2004 Hey Jkushner, Sorry, the best answer I can give you is "I don't know whether you'll make 165 or not". In general, you'll get a higher power factor using a heavier bullet than you will with a light bullet. 180s will produce higher PF than 165s, even with the same powder charge. My bullets actually weigh about 175 grains, so if yours weigh 180, you'll get a bit higher PF from that (weigh them on a scale...I've found cast bullets will average 5 grains or more different from the weight stated by the manufacturer). On the other hand, you'll lose some velocity with the shorter barrels. Finally, how tight your chambers are will have some effect. According to my loading manuals (I'm doing linear interpolation between the start and max loads to find the velocity for 4.7gr): Lasercast says you'll get 908fps (163 PF) Winchester says (with 170gr lead), you'll get 940fps (159.8 PF) Both of these manuals list 5.0gr as a max load, and 4.5 and 4.0 as start, respectively. Jeff Maass' data, from his website which I don't have handy; 180 gr RNFP (West Coast...I don't know if those are lead or not), with 4.8 gr WST makes 168.8, and 5.1gr WST get 176.0 PF Anyway, based on those published loads, I would not want to shoot your load at a major match without testing it on a chronograph first. I would guess that load will be very close to making major, but it could fall on either side of the line pretty easily! Oh, by the way, my loads these days are actually 1.178" OAL, or so, not 1.19" listed above. Hope that helps! DogmaDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkushner1 Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Thanks Dogma and Tyro. I'll chrono this load next week and post my findings - I'm borrowing the chrono - I want to buy one. Can you direct me to a be.com thread that covers the same. Thanks guys. jkushner1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Heh. If you don't have a timer yet, then just get a Pact Mk IV from Brian. $200 for both is a pretty good deal. Search for PACT or chronograph, and you'll find plenty. DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonnie Posted October 7, 2004 Share Posted October 7, 2004 Larry Cazes, That's a pretty good price. Could you share your source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino_aki Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 If I remember correctly, WST which used to be called Super Target (am I showing my age?) was developed to replace WW 452AA which I always used from the get-go in 45 acp because it was slower burning than 231. It was also the recommended powder to use with those gamey 152gr bullets in a then cutting edge 45acp Open gun built on a Para gunsmith frame. Both 452AA and Super Target burned fairly clean, although I seem to remember yellow grains of residue left by both. I've tried WST in my Limited gun at 4.8 gr under 200 gr LSWC's and LRN's, works although it seems to have a sharper recoil than I remember with either 452AA or Super Target. Might be too many years of Open gun too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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