PF potential of SC?

[RevolverJockey]

I am still gathering data for my soon to arrive 627 and am looking at posted load data for lead bullets in SC, LC, and SPL I trimmed down dome SPL to LC and SC length to see the difference right in front of me. It is obvious the advantage of the the shorter cases, but I am having trouble finding any data the supports making USPSA minor PF (125). To me it looks like a SPL can make about 250 fps more than SC in all weights and without getting into a +P load. Is there a thread with a lot of load data that can fill in the gaps in SC or LC capability? Thanks,

Lee

[underlug]

I am still gathering data for my soon to arrive 627 and am looking at posted load data for lead bullets in SC, LC, and SPL I trimmed down dome SPL to LC and SC length to see the difference right in front of me. It is obvious the advantage of the the shorter cases, but I am having trouble finding any data the supports making USPSA minor PF (125). To me it looks like a SPL can make about 250 fps more than SC in all weights and without getting into a +P load. Is there a thread with a lot of load data that can fill in the gaps in SC or LC capability? Thanks,

Lee

You are in the "Twilight Zone" with these cartridges. You are on your own. The published loads for short and long colt are not in the ballpark. Most people who use these start with 9mm and .38 super loads as the case lengths are similiar and carefully monitor pressure. There are threads on these loads

Life has no guarantees :rolleyes:

[RevolverJockey]

I am still gathering data for my soon to arrive 627 and am looking at posted load data for lead bullets in SC, LC, and SPL I trimmed down dome SPL to LC and SC length to see the difference right in front of me. It is obvious the advantage of the the shorter cases, but I am having trouble finding any data the supports making USPSA minor PF (125). To me it looks like a SPL can make about 250 fps more than SC in all weights and without getting into a +P load. Is there a thread with a lot of load data that can fill in the gaps in SC or LC capability? Thanks,

Lee

You are in the "Twilight Zone" with these cartridges. You are on your own. The published loads for short and long colt are not in the ballpark. Most people who use these start with 9mm and .38 super loads as the case lengths are similiar and carefully monitor pressure. There are threads on these loads

Life has no guarantees :rolleyes:

Kinda what I thought would be said. Seems like a huge strain on brass. I was surprised how easy making LC brass was but I wouldn't want to go any shorter with a lathe trimmer. Not much difference between SPL and LC but a big jump down to SC. As someone who has never had to pay for bullets or brass the thought of buying SC at $150/1,000 and hot loading it to maybe only 2 or 3 loadings is an intimidating thought.

Lee

Edited February 12, 2012 by Mitch_Rapp.45

[AzShooter]

There were very few published loads that make minor. I had to find them in an old manual. I forget which one.

The powders that would make minor with no problem were Red Dot at about 3.0 grains with a 158 grain bullet at 1.16 OAL. You can also use Unique 3.3 grains works.

I wanted to use published data and not work up my own magic. They work, start .1 grain low and work up in your gun.

[Toolguy]

Case volume in SC is exactly the same as 9mm which they are loading to major. You can easily make minor with it. I use 9mm loading data. I would personally not load Short Colt or 9mm to major, but minor is about a .38 Special+P load which is really not that hot. Most guns these will be shot in are rated for .357 Magnum anyway.

[RevolverJockey]

Case volume in SC is exactly the same as 9mm which they are loading to major. You can easily make minor with it. I use 9mm loading data. I would personally not load Short Colt or 9mm to major, but minor is about a .38 Special+P load which is really not that hot. Most guns these will be shot in are rated for .357 Magnum anyway.

That's a good point. Any idea what the ideal weight is in cast lead for minor SC?

[Buffalobolt]

I had some old loading data for red dot in 9mm that I used (I have a bunch of red dot on hand).

I started with 3.0 grains of red dot with a 158gr lead truncated cone bullet. I ended up crimping at the top of the lube groove for an OAL of 1.205". It shot nice and from the data (not crono'ed yet), it should be around a 135pf.

Our indoor matches over the winter have some of those polymer knock down plates and that load didn't take them over so well. I ended up using 3.2gr of red dot with the same bullet which should give a PF of around 141-2. It seemed to help somewhat, but I'll likely end up going back to 3.0gr for the little bit of difference.

Those were all with Starline SC brass. Not cut down 38spl.

Spring will hopefully be here soon, and we'll get to shoot some steel targets again!

[westczek]

I shoot 38 Short Colt "Heavy Duty" from a S&W 686 in USPSA. It makes minor with room to spare. I get about 130 PF. I started with 9mm 147gn data when working up my load. I use the Starline brass. I'm was using 158 grn 358 sized bullets from Black Bullets International. I'm now using 160 grainers from Bayou Bullets seated to a 1.15 inch OAL. I use 3.6 gns of Solo 1000. In fact that is the same powder I use behind 147 grn bullets in my 9 mm Lugar CZ75. I taper crimp with a 9mm die after seating.

Westczek

[RevolverJockey]

Seems like if you had a mind to you could trim down special brass to any length you want if you were just wanting a game gun load. Something shorter than LC but longer than SC and have the perfect balance length and maximum versatility of bullet weights. I think I may play around with something around .900 trim length. I have WST, TG and Bullseye on hand. I am guessing TG would be the best powder to start with?

Lee

[Toolguy]

If you trim down .38 brass to SC length you will have less case volume and the case wall will probably be too thick that far down. Then you would have to get a special reamer and ream die and ream them all out. You may want to check one or two before you cut down a couple hundred.

Bullet weight is your friend when making power factor and knocking over reactive targets.

Two other good powders for that would be HP 38 and WW 231.

[RevolverJockey]

If you trim down .38 brass to SC length you will have less case volume and the case wall will probably be too thick that far down. Then you would have to get a special reamer and ream die and ream them all out. You may want to check one or two before you cut down a couple hundred.

Bullet weight is your friend when making power factor and knocking over reactive targets.

Two other good powders for that would be HP 38 and WW 231.

A PM from Bubber got me the thinking about essentially making rimmed 38 Super. I trimmed down a handful to see what they looked like.

.357, SPL, LC, 38 Super R, SC

I think the moral may be as everyone says - buy SC and be done with it. This doesn't sit well with my over complicate everything mentality.

Lee

Edited February 13, 2012 by Mitch_Rapp.45

[westczek]

Trimming 38 Special cases sounds like a lot of work, but hey you only have to do it once. The only reason I can see for buying the Starline 38 Short Colt brass is if you will be Hearthco moonclips. The extractor groove is very wide on the Starline brass and works with the thick Hearthco clips. It is a very good combination. If you are not going to use the Hearthco clips, trimming down 38 Special brass that works with the moonclips you have makes sense.

Westczek

[Carmoney]

With a good minor-PF load, .38 Short Colts with RN bullets and Starline brass in Hearthco moonclips are GREAT to shoot and GREAT for reloading at speed. I have never found anything better for shooting ICORE or steel out of an 8-shot revo. In fact, I have quit loading .38 Specials entirely. Yeah, you will have to spend some money on the moons and brass initially, but I think you'll find it well worth the investment.

[jasond]

No worries about brass life - I've shot my starline .38 sc around 20X.

Because I'm lazy, I leave the powder measure set and use the same load for .38 special.

[RevolverJockey]

So a Dillon 9mm set of dies with a .38 sizer is essentially what everyone is using?

Lee

[Daniele]

I load the SC with a minor 9x21 load, 125RN copper plated bullet and a small amount of fast burning powder.

Used this load for 627 (IPSC prod & ICORE Open) and 686P (Steel Challenge).

Tried also Major with H&N 200 bullet in a 686 5", a recipe Sasha used to get the Euro Crown in IPSC Revo.

[John Z Sr]

I load the SC with a minor 9x21 load, 125RN copper plated bullet and a small amount of fast burning powder.

Used this load for 627 (IPSC prod & ICORE Open) and 686P (Steel Challenge).

Tried also Major with H&N 200 bullet in a 686 5", a recipe Sasha used to get the Euro Crown in IPSC Revo.

I have cast some 195 gr rn, what powder did you use to make major Daniele? I was thinking of trying it in my 4" 686 that I just had milled for moonclips, thanks

[Carmoney]

Tried also Major with H&N 200 bullet in a 686 5", a recipe Sasha used to get the Euro Crown in IPSC Revo.

With all due respect to Daniele and Sasha, I would never recommend attempting to make IPSC major with short colt brass, and particularly not with heavy bullets. You're talking some serious pressures, guys.

I am guessing that some of the Euro wheelgunners are compelled to try that stuff because they don't have access to bigger caliber guns. If you are able to purchase a .45 or 10mm revolver, there is no good reason to screw around trying to make major with short colts and risk blowing the gun apart.

[Daniele]

First time I tested SC Major PF (173 or about) the 686 (6" barrell) fighted against a 5" 625, a 5" 610.

865 Fps is all you need to get a safe major, no evident sign of excessive pressure, less muzzle flip than the other revos BUT

6" is too long and 9mm holes are too small in my opinion.

Sasha proved I was wrong!

Few years later I got my beloved 4" (scarce) 646 and I stay in 40S&W for Major IPSC.

[John Z Sr]

Tried also Major with H&N 200 bullet in a 686 5", a recipe Sasha used to get the Euro Crown in IPSC Revo.

With all due respect to Daniele and Sasha, I would never recommend attempting to make IPSC major with short colt brass, and particularly not with heavy bullets. You're talking some serious pressures, guys.

I am guessing that some of the Euro wheelgunners are compelled to try that stuff because they don't have access to bigger caliber guns. If you are able to purchase a .45 or 10mm revolver, there is no good reason to screw around trying to make major with short colts and risk blowing the gun apart.

Thanks Mike, I was just wondering, will stick to minor and "Alphas" appreciate the warning

[Bubber]

First time I tested SC Major PF (173 or about) the 686 (6" barrell) fighted against a 5" 625, a 5" 610.

865 Fps is all you need to get a safe major, no evident sign of excessive pressure, less muzzle flip than the other revos BUT

6" is too long and 9mm holes are too small in my opinion.

Sasha proved I was wrong!

Few years later I got my beloved 4" (scarce) 646 and I stay in 40S&W for Major IPSC.

Daniele, was that with a 200 grain jacketed bullet? Also was yours a moderetly slow powder that you used? In the olden days we would use the same load for Major and Minor we would just switch from a 160 grain bullet to a 135 grain bullet. But powders have changed since then. Thanks, rdd

[Gregg K]

But powders have changed since then. Thanks, rdd

Yep, now they have that new smokeless powder.

[Bubber]

But powders have changed since then. Thanks, rdd

Yep, now they have that new smokeless powder.

GRRR!!! May the Rabbit extract my revenge!!!!

[JFlowers]

I seem to recall a discussion on the IPSC Village about someone making Major with 38 Shorts, 158gr FMJ, and one of the VV powders. Never followed up or experimented. Shot 180gr LTC at Major out of my 6" 357 using 38 SPCL brass until I got 625. Now I just run 38 Shorts in the 6" for Steel Challenge and ICORE Classic.

[cooper_999]

don't mix things up...

I have different recipes for major. One, I used before the 38shorts was 200grs copper plated H&N RN bullets with N350 in 38spl cases. Next step in "evolution" has been shortened 38spl cases with 158grs H&N copper plated RNs and N340 and finally, the load I used at the Europeans 2010 and the WS last year - 38shortcolt 160grs ARES RN (polymer coated lead) and VV N350 loaded to make major. I've shot more than 20k of this load in the past years without any issue.

All of my loads have been tested and proofed below 357mag pressure. No good idea to shoot them in a 38spl Revo but IMHO no prob in a 586 or 686. Of course, this without any guarantee. Everything's on your own risk.