Saiga 12

[downhere2]

A saiga is somewhere between having a porn star girlfriend and a dog that does cool tricks but bites sometimes.

I do like mine but it took me a couple of months to figure it out and get it running. The good thing is that most of the problems you can fix yourself and the info is available online.

[SinistralRifleman]

A saiga is somewhere between having a porn star girlfriend and a dog that does cool tricks but bites sometimes.

LOL! That's sig line material right there.

[Doug H.]

A saiga is somewhere between having a porn star girlfriend and a dog that does cool tricks but bites sometimes.

LOL! That's sig line material right there.

More like a porn star girlfriend that does cool tricks and bites sometimes.

Doug

Edited February 16, 2012 by Doug H.

[Chuck Anderson]

I had issues with my gun when I first got it. I've found out through trial and error there was a major problem with it...me. This was basically my first AK pattern gun. It took awhile to figure out, what to clean, how often, where to lube, how much, what to feed it, what it likes and doesn't like. Just like every other competition gun I own. I'm sure Robbie could make it run everything, but it would kick like a mule and beat itself to death in a thousand rounds. Any time you fine tune something to get maximum performance you're giving up something else. Do I want a gun that runs every shell from 2 3/4 dram to 3 3/4 dram? Not really. I'd rather have it optimized for the load I want it to shoot. When I had the rails on my Bianchi pistol tightened I knew it would make the gun require more frequent cleanings and would be more sensitive. Samething with the Saiga, and I'm guessing the Akdal when they start popping up more frequently. There will be a learning curve to them. What works, what doesn't.

I had the same issues listed above with outrunning the mag spring. Robbie figured it out right away once I bothered to ask him about it instead of just getting frustrated. I've also talked to people that bitch about the gun, not knowing a dang thing about it and not letting the smith have an opportunity to fix it. I talked to one guy who said it worked great until he cleaned it. After that malfunctioned like crazy. Turned out he didn't realize there were two positions on the gas regulator. Set it on the right one and he was back off and running. Taking a new platform, not knowing how to maintain it, and then blaming it or the smith is just dumb. I'm willing to be the same people who can't figure out the Saiga and have issues are the same people that will be complaining when they get their Akdal.

[sbcman]

You guys go ahead and pump hundreds and hundreds of dollars into your Saigas that prove finicky, and AKDAL's which haven't proven themselves yet and don't have parts availability....

I'll stick with my Benelli M2 and walk with confidence

I have litterally stomped many a shooters...

Dang! Three gun must be HARDCORE where you're at

Sorry did not mean to be rude. Was just saying my Saiga has allowed me to beat a master class shooter on a shotgun stage with lots of rounds fired. Not because I shot better but rather because I could reload so easily. I use a coupled mag and its so fast. Most of the guys up here in open are older guys using Remington 1100's with speedloaders. A few of them got the X-rail for outlaw matches. But it was still easy to best them on shotgun stages. A few guys are threatening to get their own Saiga's from R&R and then I will be put back down in my place on shotgun stages.

pat

No, no, just playing - I see where you're coming from. Mag changes can go lightening fast with a Saiga, although I've seen some guys run speedloaders that were incredibly fast as well. I wouldn't count yourself out just because other guys might run Saigas. It's one thing to own a platform, a whole other thing to actually run it

[Doug H.]

I had issues with my gun when I first got it. I've found out through trial and error there was a major problem with it...me. This was basically my first AK pattern gun. It took awhile to figure out, what to clean, how often, where to lube, how much, what to feed it, what it likes and doesn't like. Just like every other competition gun I own. I'm sure Robbie could make it run everything, but it would kick like a mule and beat itself to death in a thousand rounds. Any time you fine tune something to get maximum performance you're giving up something else. Do I want a gun that runs every shell from 2 3/4 dram to 3 3/4 dram? Not really. I'd rather have it optimized for the load I want it to shoot. When I had the rails on my Bianchi pistol tightened I knew it would make the gun require more frequent cleanings and would be more sensitive. Samething with the Saiga, and I'm guessing the Akdal when they start popping up more frequently. There will be a learning curve to them. What works, what doesn't.

I had the same issues listed above with outrunning the mag spring. Robbie figured it out right away once I bothered to ask him about it instead of just getting frustrated. I've also talked to people that bitch about the gun, not knowing a dang thing about it and not letting the smith have an opportunity to fix it. I talked to one guy who said it worked great until he cleaned it. After that malfunctioned like crazy. Turned out he didn't realize there were two positions on the gas regulator. Set it on the right one and he was back off and running. Taking a new platform, not knowing how to maintain it, and then blaming it or the smith is just dumb. I'm willing to be the same people who can't figure out the Saiga and have issues are the same people that will be complaining when they get their Akdal.

This seems to be a major problem with new Saiga shooters. I talked to one Saiga shooter (a frequent poster here but I won't call him out) that didn't know there was a piston in the gas system. He started getting FTFs and was finally clued in by the gun's builder. It ran great after a good cleaning but hurt him at a big match. Another guy I shoot with asked me how to clean the piston without hurting the o-rings. O-rings, what o-rings? He had fired over 500 rounds out of his R&R Saiga without cleaning the gas system and had built up a solid mass of carbon on the puck that did kind of look like a pair of o-rings. For me, finding the right load and sticking with it was the trick. I always shoot 1oz AA Super Sport loads, they work every time. Operator error is the most common problem but that doesn't stop some people from badmouthing a product that is not actually defective.

Doug

[KentG]

I had issues with my gun when I first got it. I've found out through trial and error there was a major problem with it...me. This was basically my first AK pattern gun. It took awhile to figure out, what to clean, how often, where to lube, how much, what to feed it, what it likes and doesn't like. Just like every other competition gun I own. I'm sure Robbie could make it run everything, but it would kick like a mule and beat itself to death in a thousand rounds. Any time you fine tune something to get maximum performance you're giving up something else. Do I want a gun that runs every shell from 2 3/4 dram to 3 3/4 dram? Not really. I'd rather have it optimized for the load I want it to shoot. When I had the rails on my Bianchi pistol tightened I knew it would make the gun require more frequent cleanings and would be more sensitive. Samething with the Saiga, and I'm guessing the Akdal when they start popping up more frequently. There will be a learning curve to them. What works, what doesn't.

I had the same issues listed above with outrunning the mag spring. Robbie figured it out right away once I bothered to ask him about it instead of just getting frustrated. I've also talked to people that bitch about the gun, not knowing a dang thing about it and not letting the smith have an opportunity to fix it. I talked to one guy who said it worked great until he cleaned it. After that malfunctioned like crazy. Turned out he didn't realize there were two positions on the gas regulator. Set it on the right one and he was back off and running. Taking a new platform, not knowing how to maintain it, and then blaming it or the smith is just dumb. I'm willing to be the same people who can't figure out the Saiga and have issues are the same people that will be complaining when they get their Akdal.

This seems to be a major problem with new Saiga shooters. I talked to one Saiga shooter (a frequent poster here but I won't call him out) that didn't know there was a piston in the gas system. He started getting FTFs and was finally clued in by the gun's builder. It ran great after a good cleaning but hurt him at a big match. Another guy I shoot with asked me how to clean the piston without hurting the o-rings. O-rings, what o-rings? He had fired over 500 rounds out of his R&R Saiga without cleaning the gas system and had built up a solid mass of carbon on the puck that did kind of look like a pair of o-rings. For me, finding the right load and sticking with it was the trick. I always shoot 1oz AA Super Sport loads, they work every time. Operator error is the most common problem but that doesn't stop some people from badmouthing a product that is not actually defective.

Doug

Seriously? Someone who is in competative shooting and has that little knowledge of a gun they shoot and paid big money for???Thats pretty bad. Id hate to see what the rest of their kit looks like.

[Chuck Anderson]

I had issues with my gun when I first got it. I've found out through trial and error there was a major problem with it...me. This was basically my first AK pattern gun. It took awhile to figure out, what to clean, how often, where to lube, how much, what to feed it, what it likes and doesn't like. Just like every other competition gun I own. I'm sure Robbie could make it run everything, but it would kick like a mule and beat itself to death in a thousand rounds. Any time you fine tune something to get maximum performance you're giving up something else. Do I want a gun that runs every shell from 2 3/4 dram to 3 3/4 dram? Not really. I'd rather have it optimized for the load I want it to shoot. When I had the rails on my Bianchi pistol tightened I knew it would make the gun require more frequent cleanings and would be more sensitive. Samething with the Saiga, and I'm guessing the Akdal when they start popping up more frequently. There will be a learning curve to them. What works, what doesn't.

I had the same issues listed above with outrunning the mag spring. Robbie figured it out right away once I bothered to ask him about it instead of just getting frustrated. I've also talked to people that bitch about the gun, not knowing a dang thing about it and not letting the smith have an opportunity to fix it. I talked to one guy who said it worked great until he cleaned it. After that malfunctioned like crazy. Turned out he didn't realize there were two positions on the gas regulator. Set it on the right one and he was back off and running. Taking a new platform, not knowing how to maintain it, and then blaming it or the smith is just dumb. I'm willing to be the same people who can't figure out the Saiga and have issues are the same people that will be complaining when they get their Akdal.

This seems to be a major problem with new Saiga shooters. I talked to one Saiga shooter (a frequent poster here but I won't call him out) that didn't know there was a piston in the gas system. He started getting FTFs and was finally clued in by the gun's builder. It ran great after a good cleaning but hurt him at a big match. Another guy I shoot with asked me how to clean the piston without hurting the o-rings. O-rings, what o-rings? He had fired over 500 rounds out of his R&R Saiga without cleaning the gas system and had built up a solid mass of carbon on the puck that did kind of look like a pair of o-rings. For me, finding the right load and sticking with it was the trick. I always shoot 1oz AA Super Sport loads, they work every time. Operator error is the most common problem but that doesn't stop some people from badmouthing a product that is not actually defective.

Doug

Seriously? Someone who is in competative shooting and has that little knowledge of a gun they shoot and paid big money for???Thats pretty bad. Id hate to see what the rest of their kit looks like.

Sorry to disappoint you Kent. Apparently I had better things to do than learn all about the Kalashnikov system before ever owning one. There is a learning curve, particularly with different firearms designs. I can't tell you the number of 2011 pattern guns I've seen malfunction that were due to poor maintanence. It's very, very normal. If you're an AR shooter and swap over to a Saiga, a gun that really doesn't have a decent manual anywhere and one that no one else in your club probably has yet, I'd bet even the best shooter is going to have some learning time.

I'd also be willing to be that no matter how good the Akdal is, within 3 months of Jim shipping the first one, at least a couple people will be bitching that they suck. And it won't be Jim's fault it will be the nut behind the butt that didn't realize you need to clean that one little spot where the crud builds up. (I know about it but I'm not telling.)

[KentG]

I had issues with my gun when I first got it. I've found out through trial and error there was a major problem with it...me. This was basically my first AK pattern gun. It took awhile to figure out, what to clean, how often, where to lube, how much, what to feed it, what it likes and doesn't like. Just like every other competition gun I own. I'm sure Robbie could make it run everything, but it would kick like a mule and beat itself to death in a thousand rounds. Any time you fine tune something to get maximum performance you're giving up something else. Do I want a gun that runs every shell from 2 3/4 dram to 3 3/4 dram? Not really. I'd rather have it optimized for the load I want it to shoot. When I had the rails on my Bianchi pistol tightened I knew it would make the gun require more frequent cleanings and would be more sensitive. Samething with the Saiga, and I'm guessing the Akdal when they start popping up more frequently. There will be a learning curve to them. What works, what doesn't.

I had the same issues listed above with outrunning the mag spring. Robbie figured it out right away once I bothered to ask him about it instead of just getting frustrated. I've also talked to people that bitch about the gun, not knowing a dang thing about it and not letting the smith have an opportunity to fix it. I talked to one guy who said it worked great until he cleaned it. After that malfunctioned like crazy. Turned out he didn't realize there were two positions on the gas regulator. Set it on the right one and he was back off and running. Taking a new platform, not knowing how to maintain it, and then blaming it or the smith is just dumb. I'm willing to be the same people who can't figure out the Saiga and have issues are the same people that will be complaining when they get their Akdal.

This seems to be a major problem with new Saiga shooters. I talked to one Saiga shooter (a frequent poster here but I won't call him out) that didn't know there was a piston in the gas system. He started getting FTFs and was finally clued in by the gun's builder. It ran great after a good cleaning but hurt him at a big match. Another guy I shoot with asked me how to clean the piston without hurting the o-rings. O-rings, what o-rings? He had fired over 500 rounds out of his R&R Saiga without cleaning the gas system and had built up a solid mass of carbon on the puck that did kind of look like a pair of o-rings. For me, finding the right load and sticking with it was the trick. I always shoot 1oz AA Super Sport loads, they work every time. Operator error is the most common problem but that doesn't stop some people from badmouthing a product that is not actually defective.

Doug

Seriously? Someone who is in competative shooting and has that little knowledge of a gun they shoot and paid big money for???Thats pretty bad. Id hate to see what the rest of their kit looks like.

Sorry to disappoint you Kent. Apparently I had better things to do than learn all about the Kalashnikov system before ever owning one. There is a learning curve, particularly with different firearms designs. I can't tell you the number of 2011 pattern guns I've seen malfunction that were due to poor maintanence. It's very, very normal. If you're an AR shooter and swap over to a Saiga, a gun that really doesn't have a decent manual anywhere and one that no one else in your club probably has yet, I'd bet even the best shooter is going to have some learning time.

I'd also be willing to be that no matter how good the Akdal is, within 3 months of Jim shipping the first one, at least a couple people will be bitching that they suck. And it won't be Jim's fault it will be the nut behind the butt that didn't realize you need to clean that one little spot where the crud builds up. (I know about it but I'm not telling.)

Sorry. I had no idea who it was and mean no offense. Just suprised since cleaning the gas plug is just a part of a routine cleaning every few hundred rounds. I honestly wasn't trying to diss anyone and sorry if it seemed so.

[Doug H.]

I had issues with my gun when I first got it. I've found out through trial and error there was a major problem with it...me. This was basically my first AK pattern gun. It took awhile to figure out, what to clean, how often, where to lube, how much, what to feed it, what it likes and doesn't like. Just like every other competition gun I own. I'm sure Robbie could make it run everything, but it would kick like a mule and beat itself to death in a thousand rounds. Any time you fine tune something to get maximum performance you're giving up something else. Do I want a gun that runs every shell from 2 3/4 dram to 3 3/4 dram? Not really. I'd rather have it optimized for the load I want it to shoot. When I had the rails on my Bianchi pistol tightened I knew it would make the gun require more frequent cleanings and would be more sensitive. Samething with the Saiga, and I'm guessing the Akdal when they start popping up more frequently. There will be a learning curve to them. What works, what doesn't.

I had the same issues listed above with outrunning the mag spring. Robbie figured it out right away once I bothered to ask him about it instead of just getting frustrated. I've also talked to people that bitch about the gun, not knowing a dang thing about it and not letting the smith have an opportunity to fix it. I talked to one guy who said it worked great until he cleaned it. After that malfunctioned like crazy. Turned out he didn't realize there were two positions on the gas regulator. Set it on the right one and he was back off and running. Taking a new platform, not knowing how to maintain it, and then blaming it or the smith is just dumb. I'm willing to be the same people who can't figure out the Saiga and have issues are the same people that will be complaining when they get their Akdal.

This seems to be a major problem with new Saiga shooters. I talked to one Saiga shooter (a frequent poster here but I won't call him out) that didn't know there was a piston in the gas system. He started getting FTFs and was finally clued in by the gun's builder. It ran great after a good cleaning but hurt him at a big match. Another guy I shoot with asked me how to clean the piston without hurting the o-rings. O-rings, what o-rings? He had fired over 500 rounds out of his R&R Saiga without cleaning the gas system and had built up a solid mass of carbon on the puck that did kind of look like a pair of o-rings. For me, finding the right load and sticking with it was the trick. I always shoot 1oz AA Super Sport loads, they work every time. Operator error is the most common problem but that doesn't stop some people from badmouthing a product that is not actually defective.

Doug

Seriously? Someone who is in competative shooting and has that little knowledge of a gun they shoot and paid big money for???Thats pretty bad. Id hate to see what the rest of their kit looks like.

Sorry to disappoint you Kent. Apparently I had better things to do than learn all about the Kalashnikov system before ever owning one. There is a learning curve, particularly with different firearms designs. I can't tell you the number of 2011 pattern guns I've seen malfunction that were due to poor maintanence. It's very, very normal. If you're an AR shooter and swap over to a Saiga, a gun that really doesn't have a decent manual anywhere and one that no one else in your club probably has yet, I'd bet even the best shooter is going to have some learning time.

I'd also be willing to be that no matter how good the Akdal is, within 3 months of Jim shipping the first one, at least a couple people will be bitching that they suck. And it won't be Jim's fault it will be the nut behind the butt that didn't realize you need to clean that one little spot where the crud builds up. (I know about it but I'm not telling.)

Sorry. I had no idea who it was and mean no offense. Just suprised since cleaning the gas plug is just a part of a routine cleaning every few hundred rounds. I honestly wasn't trying to diss anyone and sorry if it seemed so.

Actually I was not refering to Chuck but another shooter. Both of the guys I mentioned are A class or higher shooters and know how to maintain a gun. I had to have my buddy show me how to strip my first Saiga because I was clueless. I have a clue now.

Doug

[Chuck Anderson]

No, Doug wasn't referring to me. I've kept the shame of my cluelessness mostly to myself. But I'm one of the guys you were referring to that spent a stupid amount of money on a gun they didn't know how to work on. And I guess I'm kind of competetive. Took me a lot longer to figure out how to put it together again than it should have. Taking it apart is way too easy. Putting it back together, not so much. I thought I was cleaning it just fine but after 6 months I found a big old build up of crud at the very back of the piston chamber. Hadn't even noticed it. Cost me a lot at the CMMG match last year. Almost lost out at MGM when I hadn't figured out the recoil springs yet. If I hadn't DQ'd Doug at the A1MG match my mushroomed piston might have cost me that match as well. I don't spend a lot of time working on my guns. It was probably 10 years of Multigun before I every took an AR lower apart. And I only started building them 3 or so years ago after competing with them for 16 years. No gun is perfect. I just really, really like my R&R Saiga. When I do my part by feeding it properly and maintaining it I couldn't ask for a better gun.

[KentG]

No, Doug wasn't referring to me. I've kept the shame of my cluelessness mostly to myself. But I'm one of the guys you were referring to that spent a stupid amount of money on a gun they didn't know how to work on. And I guess I'm kind of competetive. Took me a lot longer to figure out how to put it together again than it should have. Taking it apart is way too easy. Putting it back together, not so much. I thought I was cleaning it just fine but after 6 months I found a big old build up of crud at the very back of the piston chamber. Hadn't even noticed it. Cost me a lot at the CMMG match last year. Almost lost out at MGM when I hadn't figured out the recoil springs yet. If I hadn't DQ'd Doug at the A1MG match my mushroomed piston might have cost me that match as well. I don't spend a lot of time working on my guns. It was probably 10 years of Multigun before I every took an AR lower apart. And I only started building them 3 or so years ago after competing with them for 16 years. No gun is perfect. I just really, really like my R&R Saiga. When I do my part by feeding it properly and maintaining it I couldn't ask for a better gun.

I got tired of shaking the thing to get the puck out when it's really dirty. So I drilled and taped 10/24 hole about half the thickness of the puck or just deep enough to screw in a 2" long screw to pull out the puck.

[Alaskapopo]

No, Doug wasn't referring to me. I've kept the shame of my cluelessness mostly to myself. But I'm one of the guys you were referring to that spent a stupid amount of money on a gun they didn't know how to work on. And I guess I'm kind of competetive. Took me a lot longer to figure out how to put it together again than it should have. Taking it apart is way too easy. Putting it back together, not so much. I thought I was cleaning it just fine but after 6 months I found a big old build up of crud at the very back of the piston chamber. Hadn't even noticed it. Cost me a lot at the CMMG match last year. Almost lost out at MGM when I hadn't figured out the recoil springs yet. If I hadn't DQ'd Doug at the A1MG match my mushroomed piston might have cost me that match as well. I don't spend a lot of time working on my guns. It was probably 10 years of Multigun before I every took an AR lower apart. And I only started building them 3 or so years ago after competing with them for 16 years. No gun is perfect. I just really, really like my R&R Saiga. When I do my part by feeding it properly and maintaining it I couldn't ask for a better gun.

I was wondering if he was talking about me because after having some problems on a match I called Rob up and he helped me through check list and he asked about cleaning the gas piston. Frankly I was used to an AK and don't clean them much at all. Anyway I found out there was a short stroke gas piston and that it had a ton of crud built up in it. I clean that now before every match. The ammo I am running now also does not get it as dirty as the stuff I was running before. Rob has been great and offers great support of his products. The only thing I never could get to work was the 20 round mag but Rob was good enough to trade me out of it for 2 standard 12 round mags. I can't say enough good things about R&R, excellent service and products.

Pat

Edited February 18, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[Doug H.]

No, Doug wasn't referring to me. I've kept the shame of my cluelessness mostly to myself. But I'm one of the guys you were referring to that spent a stupid amount of money on a gun they didn't know how to work on. And I guess I'm kind of competetive. Took me a lot longer to figure out how to put it together again than it should have. Taking it apart is way too easy. Putting it back together, not so much. I thought I was cleaning it just fine but after 6 months I found a big old build up of crud at the very back of the piston chamber. Hadn't even noticed it. Cost me a lot at the CMMG match last year. Almost lost out at MGM when I hadn't figured out the recoil springs yet. If I hadn't DQ'd Doug at the A1MG match my mushroomed piston might have cost me that match as well. I don't spend a lot of time working on my guns. It was probably 10 years of Multigun before I every took an AR lower apart. And I only started building them 3 or so years ago after competing with them for 16 years. No gun is perfect. I just really, really like my R&R Saiga. When I do my part by feeding it properly and maintaining it I couldn't ask for a better gun.

I was wondering if he was talking about me because after having some problems on a match I called Rob up and he helped me through check list and he asked about cleaning the gas piston. Frankly I was used to an AK and don't clean them much at all. Anyway I found out there was a short stroke gas piston and that it had a ton of crud built up in it. I clean that now before every match. The ammo I am running now also does not get it as dirty as the stuff I was running before. Rob has been great and offers great support of his products. The only thing I never could get to work was the 20 round mag but Rob was good enough to trade me out of it for 2 standard 12 round mags. I can't say enough good things about R&R, excellent service and products.

Pat

No not you Pat, I was talking about 2 other shooters, one A class and the other a Master. I don't know you well enough to post dirt about you, yet!

Doug

Edited February 18, 2012 by Doug H.

[Alaskapopo]

No worries if you had. I felt kind of stupid for assuming the Saiga 12 worked the same way as my Saiga rifle. I owe it to Rob and the Saiga for being in open. I would never have tried this division if it was not for what he does with this shotgun. Shooting open has made me a better shooter overall so I am glad I jumped in. When Rob starts doing AKDAL's then I will no its time to try one. Are you going to the Texas Multigun match? If so see you there.

Pat

Edited February 18, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[Mark K]

OK Guys. Good thread for the most part. I am a Saiga Shooter as well. R&R Mag well, mags, stock adapter and bottom end work, Firebird Comps (2), homemade handguard, but gas system rework and remington screw in choke work done by Jack Travers. Gun works great, especially with Rem STS ammo.

All that said - when are one you guys that have gone through all the headaches going to post a primer on maintaining one? All those special places to clean and lube, etc. The spring combo that work in our gun. The fix to the gun out running the mag spring.....

Help a brother out....

Mark K

[Doug H.]

No worries if you had. I felt kind of stupid for assuming the Saiga 12 worked the same way as my Saiga rifle. I owe it to Rob and the Saiga for being in open. I would never have tried this division if it was not for what he does with this shotgun. Shooting open has made me a better shooter overall so I am glad I jumped in. When Rob starts doing AKDAL's then I will no its time to try one. Are you going to the Texas Multigun match? If so see you there.

Pat

No, I'm not going to Texas, but I will be at Ephrata, Superstition, Ironman, Rockcastle Shotgun, Rocky Mountian and the Leupold and Warne Northwest Multigun Challenge. That's about all I can afford. I too owe my move to Open to the Saiga. I bought the 2008 R&R Shot Show gun from Robert after helping him at Shot for a couple of years. He's upgraded it for me to all the latest parts and it looks just like one of the current guns. Biggest problem for me was an Open pistol. I've upgraded a few time but I still can't seem to make A class. I still finish pretty good at big matches, mainly because of the Saiga and rifle. I've had a really good time shooting my Saiga and I think it helps me shoot above my skill level.

Doug

[Ragnar]

I want to see some pics of these R&R S12s as well!

[smokshwn]

I had issues with my gun when I first got it. I've found out through trial and error there was a major problem with it...me. This was basically my first AK pattern gun. It took awhile to figure out, what to clean, how often, where to lube, how much, what to feed it, what it likes and doesn't like. Just like every other competition gun I own. I'm sure Robbie could make it run everything, but it would kick like a mule and beat itself to death in a thousand rounds. Any time you fine tune something to get maximum performance you're giving up something else. Do I want a gun that runs every shell from 2 3/4 dram to 3 3/4 dram? Not really. I'd rather have it optimized for the load I want it to shoot. When I had the rails on my Bianchi pistol tightened I knew it would make the gun require more frequent cleanings and would be more sensitive. Samething with the Saiga, and I'm guessing the Akdal when they start popping up more frequently. There will be a learning curve to them. What works, what doesn't.

I had the same issues listed above with outrunning the mag spring. Robbie figured it out right away once I bothered to ask him about it instead of just getting frustrated. I've also talked to people that bitch about the gun, not knowing a dang thing about it and not letting the smith have an opportunity to fix it. I talked to one guy who said it worked great until he cleaned it. After that malfunctioned like crazy. Turned out he didn't realize there were two positions on the gas regulator. Set it on the right one and he was back off and running. Taking a new platform, not knowing how to maintain it, and then blaming it or the smith is just dumb. I'm willing to be the same people who can't figure out the Saiga and have issues are the same people that will be complaining when they get their Akdal.

This seems to be a major problem with new Saiga shooters. I talked to one Saiga shooter (a frequent poster here but I won't call him out) that didn't know there was a piston in the gas system. He started getting FTFs and was finally clued in by the gun's builder. It ran great after a good cleaning but hurt him at a big match. Another guy I shoot with asked me how to clean the piston without hurting the o-rings. O-rings, what o-rings? He had fired over 500 rounds out of his R&R Saiga without cleaning the gas system and had built up a solid mass of carbon on the puck that did kind of look like a pair of o-rings. For me, finding the right load and sticking with it was the trick. I always shoot 1oz AA Super Sport loads, they work every time. Operator error is the most common problem but that doesn't stop some people from badmouthing a product that is not actually defective.

Doug

Seriously? Someone who is in competative shooting and has that little knowledge of a gun they shoot and paid big money for???Thats pretty bad. Id hate to see what the rest of their kit looks like.

Sorry to disappoint you Kent. Apparently I had better things to do than learn all about the Kalashnikov system before ever owning one. There is a learning curve, particularly with different firearms designs. I can't tell you the number of 2011 pattern guns I've seen malfunction that were due to poor maintanence. It's very, very normal. If you're an AR shooter and swap over to a Saiga, a gun that really doesn't have a decent manual anywhere and one that no one else in your club probably has yet, I'd bet even the best shooter is going to have some learning time.

I'd also be willing to be that no matter how good the Akdal is, within 3 months of Jim shipping the first one, at least a couple people will be bitching that they suck. And it won't be Jim's fault it will be the nut behind the butt that didn't realize you need to clean that one little spot where the crud builds up. (I know about it but I'm not telling.)

Sorry. I had no idea who it was and mean no offense. Just suprised since cleaning the gas plug is just a part of a routine cleaning every few hundred rounds. I honestly wasn't trying to diss anyone and sorry if it seemed so.

Actually I was not refering to Chuck but another shooter. Both of the guys I mentioned are A class or higher shooters and know how to maintain a gun. I had to have my buddy show me how to strip my first Saiga because I was clueless. I have a clue now.

Doug

Actually Doug you can name names. It was me. For anyone who doesn't understand that receiving a gun a couple of weeks before a match from your sponsor with little time to get it dialed in, sometimes things get overlooked. The conversation between Jim and I went something like

me..."What do I need to do to keep this running?"

Jim... "Keep the gas system clean and lube it once in a while"

Most of the rest of the conversation was concerning parts, mounts, mods, prototype parts etc etc all the things going on with a brand new platform and trying to get it out in view of everyone. The mistake came on my part assuming the gas system on the Saiga was EXACTLY like the AK (no puck). Initially when I had some short stroking I assumed recoil springs, changed em, ran better (little shot but lots of buck and slugs on the next stage go figure) back to square one with the shorts stroking and I finally tore into the gas system thus finding the puck chamber and cleaning it out. Problem solved. In a perfect world I probably wouldn't have been shooting a new gun without the proper shake down time but it was what it was.

FWIW, as the last couple years have passed I have "taught" several people about the puck, apparently it wasn't as painfully obvious as some would have assumed.

With respect to your judgement over how well I know my gear or don't know my gear....feel free to come take a peek at my "KIT" whenever you like....both mine and Jim's desire is that it will look well used

Edited February 18, 2012 by smokshwn

[Alaskapopo]

I want to see some pics of these R&R S12s as well!

Here is mine.

[SinistralRifleman]

Too many Saigas don't run out of the box. I'm not talking about shooting well for our sport, I'm saying they just don't work. I agree they need mods to be more competitive, but you shouldn't have to gunsmith a new gun just to make it reliable. See my blog post I linked to earlier that details all the guns that didn't work out of the box. When they were $350-$450 new, it was easier to tolerate these issues because it was cheap. At $700 unconverted now, it's in the realm of not wanting to deal with for the price.

Maintenance learning curve is a different thing. I clean mine about every 300 shells. When I really want it clean I use a brass brush on a drill motor and watch all the sludge come out of the gas system. Watch for wear and peening on the bolt, it can start having issues locking up. Watch for cracking around the piston and bolt carrier area; I've seen a few cases of this but never happened to me. Make sure your receiver is clear of debris so you don't have the gun discharge when you rotate the safety to fire; (this can happen with any AK design).

The only reason we're putting up with these issues with Saigas is there isn't anything else better that is available with readily available magazines.

Edited February 19, 2012 by SinistralRifleman

[DeCoxter]

I see a lot of guys are buying "built" guns from R&R and places like that , but are any of you doing the necessary mods DIY? It looks fairly simple to work on. And does the 922R compliance still come into play. My local dealer doesn't know much about it. It looks like of I just do a stock/pistol grip change and some magazines it would be legal, but I am considering doing the trigger conversion and upgrading the gas system as well of it helps performance, any comments?

[Doug H.]

I see a lot of guys are buying "built" guns from R&R and places like that , but are any of you doing the necessary mods DIY? It looks fairly simple to work on. And does the 922R compliance still come into play. My local dealer doesn't know much about it. It looks like of I just do a stock/pistol grip change and some magazines it would be legal, but I am considering doing the trigger conversion and upgrading the gas system as well of it helps performance, any comments?

The answer to your questions is here: http://forum.saiga-12.com/

Doug