BDH Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 How do you feel about spectators (even if they are with shooters), getting in the way of people during their walk-thru and stage inspection period? In my experience, this doesn't happen very often but at one of my recent big matches, I had a shooter take me aside and let me know that their squad had been having problems with a spectator getting in the way while they had their 5 minute stage inspection period. I thanked him, and said I would watch for any problems. Sure enough, I read the walk-thru... answer a couple of questions... then tell the squad they have 5 minutes to inspect the stage. Everyone is up moving through the shooting area, and right in front of a couple of the shooters is a spectator who is gaming the stage, and clearly in the shooters way. I walked up and very nicely asked, 'excuse me, are you shooting with this squad? If not, please move out of the shooting area so the shooters can have their fair amount of time to inspect the stage'. While she did comply, her 'significant other' walked over to me before the first shooter took the line and angrily said "you know she IS a shooter too. She is just trying to learn". Then stormed away.... Does anyone think I was in the wrong here? A squad member had complained about this on previous stages... then I witnessed it, and she was clearly in the way... I asked her nicely to move out of the shooting area... My take is that anyone can game or play on the stages at any time other than when the shooters are working through their 5 minute stage inspection time, or actually shooting (obviously). That 5 minutes is a precious commodity to the shooters on a big, complex stage. I apologize in advance if anyone thinks I am being a hard ass.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 Nope, I think what you said was fine. I make it a practice to always ask before I walk on a stage when no squad is present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 If you aren't shooting the stage, then stay the heck out of the way during the 5 minute period after the walk through. If she wants to look at the stage, and even walk it a little bit, I'm sure sure she could see what she ( or he if not this case in specific) would like to while she is helping to pick up brass or paste targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!! Seriously though. At an Area 6 a couple of years ago, they had a great policy. There was a rope line at the back of the bay with a nice clear sign that stated something to the affect of: "If you are on this stage and are not part of the squad that is on the stage it will result in an automatic match disqualification." Further, when the squad is shooting the stage, I believe NO ONE should be on the stage walking through it except for the On Deck shooter and MAYBE the In The Hole shooter, if there is one called. Brian - You did the right thing and did really all you could do (save kicking the 'significant other' in the tail...but then I'm violent ). Keep up the good work and see you in Reno. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 BDH - You did the right thing. As a shooter, it's quite annoying when shooters from other squads get in the way of your walkthrough, especially when they don't even shoot until the next day. It's even worse if you're the on deck shooter doing your final walkthrough. In that situation, I'm not nearly as polite as you were, especially if I have to ask them twice to move because I'm on deck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 "..While she did comply, her 'significant other' walked over to me before the first shooter took the line and angrily said "you know she IS a shooter too. She is just trying to learn". Then stormed away.... " Well, I guess she learned alot about getting in a squads way during their walkthrough. Did she happen to notice that she was the ONLY non-squad member doing this? Elevator going to the top floor? Huh!!? jeeezz.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 You did the right thing Brian. That five minutes goes pretty quickly for several shooters on a complicated stage. Spectators and other squad members can look at it any other time. I have also noticed that more experienced shooters queue up and go through in an orderly fashion and respect each others desire to walk through the stage from start to finish and get back in line to do it again rather than wandering all over the place interrupting the flow. That strikes me as down right polite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwt Posted June 21, 2004 Share Posted June 21, 2004 I think I know who you mean Brian,she even got in the road of the pasting and didn't bother to help out. Dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted June 22, 2004 Author Share Posted June 22, 2004 At an Area 6 a couple of years ago, they had a great policy. There was a rope line at the back of the bay with a nice clear sign that stated something to the affect of:"If you are on this stage and are not part of the squad that is on the stage it will result in an automatic match disqualification." Hmmm, that seems a little extreme, but overall I agree that the 'on-deck squad' has NO business on the stage unless they are helping to paste and move things along.... While we are scoring, and resetting the stage, the ONLY person that should be on the stage is the on deck shooter. See ya in Reno... I have also noticed that more experienced shooters queue up and go through in an orderly fashion and respect each others desire to walk through the stage from start to finish and get back in line to do it again rather than wandering all over the place interrupting the flow. Yep, I've noticed too. Somehow they all work through the stage without getting in each others way... I think I know who you mean Brian,she even got in the road of the pasting and didn't bother to help out. Dale T. is that you? If so, I'm pissed at you! First, your daughter kicked my ass at the Summer Blast. Then, you take my limited gun and shoot plates offhand at a hundred yards, when I struggle to hit an IPSC target at 25 yards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 I think you are right and unsportsmanlike call DQ is an proper punishment for repeat offenses. It is the squads stage and I would think they deserve a fair look at the stage. Now if you want to check the stages out then do it when no squads are shooting and stage is empty. Its also just common sense and courtesy. So are a lot of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 If you aren't on the squad stay the hell out of there during the walk through and if you aren't on deck keep your ass out of the way. Nothing worse than being on deck trying to go over everything one last time and having some jackass that should be pasteing or brassing standing in your way. I'll tell them once then next time I'm going to run the stage full speed and if they didn't move well sucks to be them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Precision40 Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Haven't seen but a few people jump squads on the walk-thru, but it happens on occasion, they don't bother me much. I agree though that it is in bad taste to do it. The one thing that bothers me more than anything is when someone stands in front of a port with 3 targets behind it and air-guns for 30 seconds. How much time do you need to air-gun 3 targets? I get a pretty good idea how I'm going to shoot it after one or two walk-thru's because I get tired of jockying for position over and over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted June 22, 2004 Author Share Posted June 22, 2004 All, I appreciate all the input and support of my call, but we are drifting a little into two different areas. I started with 'spectators' in the way (which I have only seen a very few times), and we are moving into 'on-deck' squads in the way (which happens too often). Of course, maybe they are really one in the same... if you are up to shoot, you OWN the stage. If not, help reset, or stay out of the way. Also, if you are NOT shooting, stay back out of the shooters way so they can concentrate on what they need to be doing..... Now, back to our regularly scheduled broadcast... the squad owns the walk thru time, NOT the spectators... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 I walked up and very nicely asked, 'excuse me, are you shooting with this squad? If not, please move out of the shooting area so the shooters can have their fair amount of time to inspect the stage'. While she did comply, her 'significant other' walked over to me before the first shooter took the line and angrily said "you know she IS a shooter too. She is just trying to learn". Then stormed away.... That was absolutely the proper thing to do. Ask politely but be firm. Competitors that are not in the squad that is "up" have no business walking through with the squad. There is plenty of time for that between squads and during their own time on the range. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 My take on it: She's a shooter, too, huh? She pay to shoot this match? No, then get her the @#$% out of the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 I made this faux pas when I was new. Of course I was following a GM who made the same mistake: walking through the stage while another squad was still on it. I realize now how much this pisses people off, but can we please rise above verbal abuse and physcial contact. Some ahole (who was subsequently expelled from the club) damn near tackled me on his walkthrough and yelled some shitty comment after plowing into me. Nobody needs that horseshit at a match. Be polite. Be gracious. Explain what constitutes good match etiquette. But there's just no reason to be discourteous unless someone is a repeat/malicious "offender." And quite frankly, the bigger problem is people on the same squad not giving the on-deck shooter full access and view of the stage. Can't we all just get along? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Folks, I heard about this incident, and the shooter(s) are regulars at my club. I have mixed feelings about this issue. Let me give you the WHOLE picture. First, there is a language barrier, as she does not speak english. Second, she is a new shooter who was out there to learn. I do not in any way condone getting in a shooter(s) way when they have paid a large amount of money to compete, but I do also recognize the importance of cultivating our future shooting ranks. The lady's significant other was a bit over-protective of the situation, of course, but there were mitigating circumstances that you may not have been made aware of in the origional post. Pulling both parties aside, and explaining things (translated by the significant other), may have been a better solution. It is obvious that her actions were disruptive to other competitors, but I must admit, that I handle foriegn shooters a bit differently, as there is no way a sign or casual hints would resolve the problem. We need to go out of our way a little for foriegn shooters, as I would want them to do if I was shooting in Japan or the like. When I run her, I keep the significant other close by in case there is something outside the range commands that I need to convey, (ie "finger", "muzzle", "whoa goddammit") as that is all she identifies with. I am, by nature, very new shooter-friendly, and go out of my way to teach...especially if there is a language barrier. Please don't give me your macho "if yer ass is in the country, learn the language" crap, as she hasn't been here very long. Now guys and gals...form your opinion...you are now better informed. It is a difficult issue, and one that deserves pondering. Possibly a "dealing with foriegn shooters" thread. We all learn that we need to recite the range commands precisely in case a foriegn shooter comes over here, but we are taught little else in the level 1 and level 2 classes to address the issue of range control outside the command sequence. It's time we discussed it in more detail. We have to look at the big picture here. BTW...I am not friends with these individuals...I merely know them from running them a couple of times. Let's hear your thoughts people. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Dont really see how any of that would make a diffrence. She was politely asked to get out of the way. The significant other should have known better than to let her to continue to get in the way of the shooters during thier walk thru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Vince...Your IROA input in this matter would be most valuable, as you deal with shooters on the world stage...How do you deal with foriegn competitors and/or spectators??? Paging Dr. Pinto... Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Jon...It does matter, if she felt she was simply being shushed away, and did not understand why...Was the significant other made aware, and allowed to explain the situation, or was this abruptly brought up in a language she didn't understand, and thus she was unnecessesarily embarrassed without being given the benifit of a "range etiquette" lesson. I do feel that part of the blame lies with the significant other for not tending to his guest...but we all get pretty wrapped-up in a large competition, and I could see where one might neglect to watch how other competitors are reacting to their guests actions on the range. Keep in mind, that IPSC in another country may not necesarily be the same as it is in the US. They might not even blink at this type of activity...I am merely playing devils advocate. Please try to understand where the other individual(s) might be coming from. If you don't convey a warning in a way they can understand, then when you react to overcome the problem, it could be concieved as being over the top. I do not feel that an adequate warning was given to the young lady or the significant other in this case (probably due to language problems), but that is just my opinion. Your mileage may vary. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Jon...BTW...Where in the origional post does it say "She was warned"??? Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted June 22, 2004 Author Share Posted June 22, 2004 Great discussion, so let me clarify.... First, I tried to keep this genaric, and not highlight any individual person or match or situation. Second, a shooter on that squad had complained to me about this happening on previous stages. Third, was I somehow supposed to look at an individual and draw a conclusion the maybe they did not speak English, and did not realize that they should not have been in the middle of the stage? As for what the 'mitigating circumstances' were, well.... I guess I did not know them. The bottom line is that I made the best call I could and handled it in the best way I saw at the time. Jeff, sorry if anyone was offended. I'm just trying to learn how to do better...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 BDH...Hell guy, you are not on trial here!!! When I first met them, it took me 4 or 5 shooters into the first COF before I figured it out. I do think, however, that if the problem existed on previous stages, that those RO's and CRO's who had to of known about the language problem should have addressed it before they left their stage rather than leaving it up to the next guy. You had to make a snap judgement, and you had to go with the limited amount of knowledge you had (what a pissed-off shooter told you). It just goes to show that we don't know everything, and even when we think someone is blatantly doing something wrong, there may be more to it than we see. I can't believe that a competitor complained to you without giving you this most pertinent information!!! They had to hear them speaking to each other at those previous stages. Even my clueless a$$ could not help picking up on that!!! BDH...you are a damn fine range officer, and I am not slamming you in any way. As I said in my origional post, I even have mixed feelings about this one. Now we all have learned something new...will it ever end??? Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 As a side note, and a bit OT, but pertinent. I've had a european shooter, when the time came to pick up brass and paste up targets at a local match, look at me quizzically, but comply (he did speak english). At the end of the match (after he helped, of course), he handed back the pasters and politely stated that I was a joy to shoot with, but if he had known that he would be required to pick and paste, he would have brought his maid. Just goes to show that IPSC is different throughout the world (they must have servants to do the dirty work where he comes from...wonder if he even does his own reloading???). It is only for the rich and elite in some parts of the world, and we are truly lucky to have a middle class that can even participate in IPSC in this great country of ours. It truly is different in other countries...Oh the horror!!! Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted June 22, 2004 Share Posted June 22, 2004 Brian, you are the man, thanks again for all that you give to the sport that we all love so much. You made a good call, handled the situation well, and anybody upset about it needs a reality check. I know a GM who was DQ'd from a major match for the same reason, before even getting to fire a shot! Anyway....It was great to see you again at the Buckeye Blast and I look foward to the next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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