GrumpyOne Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Ok, at a Lv 1 club match, a LEO shows up with his duty rig, which has a flashlight mounted on a rail under the gun. The LEO is shooting in Production division. I know they (the LEO's) are mainly shooting for practice, as they don't get much practice at work, and I applaud them for wanting to get better on their own time, but shouldn't they be shooting in open? To have them shooting in Production, with all the restrictions we have to follow, while they have a weight on the end of their gun, well, doesn't it or wouldn't it, skew the match results? if it were just for practice, then open would suit them just fine, right? Do the rules support them shooting in production? What would you, as an MD, do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bsbllrooster Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Inform them of the rule and tell them if they want to be scored in production, take the light off. If they really aren't there to be competitive, then they won't mind being scored in Open but if they are trying to be competitive, then they should play by the rules. Just my .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Level 1 specificially allows duty rigs, but nowhwere does it allow for the firearm to not be division compliant. Open or comply with divisional requirements. If he does not want to be competitive, open won't matter, if he does, then of course compliance is mandatory. I'd be polite about it of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 I have brought it up to several RO's, the RM, and the MD.... Their answer was a question..."Is he going to beat you?" I answered probably not, and they replied "Well, don't worry about it then." Sure, they might not beat me, but there are other production shooters that they may beat, which would put them lower in the match standings. But to me, that isn't the point. If you are gonna shoot production, then follow the rules. What recourse does a shooter have if all the officials have turned a blind eye to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Arbitration the appropriate course of action by the rules. But you shouldn't have to. It's simple for them to take the light off. Not a big deal. And speaking as an LEO, yes they should be in Open. If you can't get the MD or RM to deal with it, you can always hit up the SC or AD. I'd hope it didn't go that far, but those are the options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 I have brought it up to several RO's, the RM, and the MD.... Their answer was a question..."Is he going to beat you?" I answered probably not, and they replied "Well, don't worry about it then." Sure, they might not beat me, but there are other production shooters that they may beat, which would put them lower in the match standings. But to me, that isn't the point. If you are gonna shoot production, then follow the rules. What recourse does a shooter have if all the officials have turned a blind eye to it? Crap Grumpy. This is where it gets dicey. Technically, you could report them to NROI and they might get a reprimand. There is a disciplinary procedure for ROs. MDs/RMs/CROs/ROs not policing themselves brings the entire officiating down. Since you have already spoken with the RM and MD, then the next thing I would do is speak with the Club president (unless he is the MD/RM) then the Section Co-Ordinator. After that, you have an Area Director. I would at least take it that far and see if it can not be resolved with a good discussion at some point along the chain of command. Problem is, most guys who won't enforce the divisional rules are not enforcing other rules and then really, you are not even shooting USPSA. Ultimately, you have to decide what the best way to bring about the proper rules enforcement. It might mean running for the positions those guys hold or holding feet to the fire, either way, it will probably be a little unpleasant to do the right thing. Best of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Springer Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 When you say "Duty" gear, is he playing with duty belt, holster with proper retention, handcuffs, radio, baton, duty mag pouches with the little snap buttons and Batarang or is he just rolling with a kydex holster and mag pouches and the only "duty" gear he has is the gun and flashlight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 Arbitration the appropriate course of action by the rules. But you shouldn't have to. It's simple for them to take the light off. Not a big deal. And speaking as an LEO, yes they should be in Open. If you can't get the MD or RM to deal with it, you can always hit up the SC or AD. I'd hope it didn't go that far, but those are the options. Thanks, Chuck....I was hoping you would chime in on this one.... I mean, I fully understand they are doing it for practice, and for that, I am grateful and applaud them, but skewing the results..... I really don't want to push the issue, as it will alienate shooters, and maybe make them shy away from the sport, and I really don't mind them practicing, just as long as it's not against me and others in production with the unfair advantage of a muzzle weight (light). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 When you say "Duty" gear, is he playing with duty belt, holster with proper retention, handcuffs, radio, baton, duty mag pouches with the little snap buttons and Batarang or is he just rolling with a kydex holster and mag pouches and the only "duty" gear he has is the gun and flashlight? I've shot with several, some with full duty rig, others with just the gun and flashlight. All were shooting production, except one (IIRC), and he shot Limited...Which by all accounts, he should have been in open as well, with the flashlight... All, please bear in mind, this is a very, very new club, and all the kinks are still being worked out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 The bottom line is we have a rulebook if you are going to hold a santioned match follow the rules whether it is a Level 1 match or the Nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 5.2.8 Competitors deemed by the Match Director to be full-time law enforcement officers with arrest powers or military personnel on current active duty orders, may be entitled to use their duty holsters or similar holster and related equipment when such equipment does not strictly satisfy the equipment or other requirements of the declared Division. The Range Master will remain the final authority in respect of the safety and suitability of using such equipment at USPSA matches. The use of such equipment, except as otherwise permitted in the rules, is restricted to Level I matches only. 1. As MD, I would refer them to the RM, since they are the one with authority in this matter. 2. Doesn't "and related equipment" mean if their duty rig has a light, they can shoot with a light? Maybe I'm reading too much into this rule, but it seems to me this is exactly why the level 1 exemption for LE was written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 I just went back and checked the previous two months results....Although I am sure they shot in Production, it does not show up in the results that ANY LEO's shot the matches... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Nothing in 5.2.8 requires them to register as LE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 Nothing in 5.2.8 requires them to register as LE. True, but at that point, if they don't register as LEO, then what's to stop me from putting a light on the end of my muzzle and shooting in Production? Either they register as LEO, and can shoot the match in their duty gear, or they register as a civilian, and shoot in open with their duty gear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 To me, those are 2 seperate issues. Registering as Female, Miltary, LE may make you eligible for special awards. At a level 1 match, I doubt there is any reason to register for any of the special categories. If the MD determines that you have powers of arrest, feel free to mount a flashlight on yoru gun. How you register has nothing to do with it. If you feel like having a flashlight on the end of your gun is that big of a deal, and you are OK with lying to the MD and your fellow competitors, have at it. You might as well load up some 105 PF loads at the same time. Once you've crossed that line, you might as well cheat in every way possible. Have you read 5.2.8? Do you still feel like the shooter and the MD are breaking the rules by allowing him to compete with the duty rig? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 To me, those are 2 seperate issues. Registering as Female, Miltary, LE may make you eligible for special awards. At a level 1 match, I doubt there is any reason to register for any of the special categories. If the MD determines that you have powers of arrest, feel free to mount a flashlight on yoru gun. How you register has nothing to do with it. If you feel like having a flashlight on the end of your gun is that big of a deal, and you are OK with lying to the MD and your fellow competitors, have at it. You might as well load up some 105 PF loads at the same time. Once you've crossed that line, you might as well cheat in every way possible. Have you read 5.2.8? Do you still feel like the shooter and the MD are breaking the rules by allowing him to compete with the duty rig? I have no idea if they are or not..... I feel that there is a need for clarification from higher up the food chain... Another point, I have not seen their badges, nor uniforms..... All I have to go by is their statement that they are LEO's, and the gear they wear. And no, I do not want to hang a light on the end of my muzzle, nor use under power ammo. I wouldn't be cheating anyone but me in the end. If the rules support them shooting in production with their duty gear, such as it is, then that's fine. Just seems a bit out of place for the game we play..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I have brought it up to several RO's, the RM, and the MD.... Their answer was a question..."Is he going to beat you?" I answered probably not, and they replied "Well, don't worry about it then." Sure, they might not beat me, but there are other production shooters that they may beat, which would put them lower in the match standings. But to me, that isn't the point. If you are gonna shoot production, then follow the rules. What recourse does a shooter have if all the officials have turned a blind eye to it? +1 Everyone should follow the rules all the time. If not why have them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 I just re-read 5.2.8....... The way interpret it, by holsters and all related equipment, I take it to mean holsters, mag pouches, etc...... Not the actual pistol. But, that is only my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsydlooknin75 Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I just re-read 5.2.8....... The way interpret it, by holsters and all related equipment, I take it to mean holsters, mag pouches, etc...... Not the actual pistol. But, that is only my opinion. So take his light off the pistol, he shoots with 10 rounds in his mags, is scored minor but his mags and pistol are infront of his hip bones. Is he still shooting production? Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 To me, those are 2 seperate issues. Registering as Female, Miltary, LE may make you eligible for special awards. At a level 1 match, I doubt there is any reason to register for any of the special categories. If the MD determines that you have powers of arrest, feel free to mount a flashlight on yoru gun. How you register has nothing to do with it. If you feel like having a flashlight on the end of your gun is that big of a deal, and you are OK with lying to the MD and your fellow competitors, have at it. You might as well load up some 105 PF loads at the same time. Once you've crossed that line, you might as well cheat in every way possible. Have you read 5.2.8? Do you still feel like the shooter and the MD are breaking the rules by allowing him to compete with the duty rig? Uh, no. That particular rule was created to allow LE guys to shoot their duty gear, meaning holster and magazine pouch positions could be adjusted. Most LE's wear their magazines in the front, not behind the hipbone. Some LE's have holsters that go below the belt, either thigh rigs or just really low belt drops. It doesn't give license to waive other divisional requirements. It doesn't give LE license to use magwells, grip tape on the slide (which by the way is not uncommon in LE), magazines loaded all the way up, slide mounted red dots or for that matter 1911's in Production. Divisional requirements are still the same, it just allows for different holster/mag locations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I have brought it up to several RO's, the RM, and the MD.... Their answer was a question..."Is he going to beat you?" I answered probably not, and they replied "Well, don't worry about it then." Sure, they might not beat me, but there are other production shooters that they may beat, which would put them lower in the match standings. But to me, that isn't the point. If you are gonna shoot production, then follow the rules. What recourse does a shooter have if all the officials have turned a blind eye to it? I really, really hate when people say crap like that. It's almost worse than the "this is just a local match" cop out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKSNIPER Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Grumpy, Speaking as a now retired LEO did you ever go up to the guy in question and inform him that he was technically in violation of the rules for shooting in production? I'll bet that: A. He had NO idea he was breaking any rules by shooting with his flashlight on. B. If you approached him about it he probably would have thanked you for informing him about the rules. My last couple years on we had switched from plain jane model 19s to the light rail model 17 Glocks and it was just a couple seconds work to remove the flashlight from the rail. IMHO The MD and RO's were wrong for not approaching these guys and informing them of the rules and I'll bet $ that the guys would like it if someone would talk to them about the rules and where they can get a copy of them etc... JK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I have brought it up to several RO's, the RM, and the MD.... Their answer was a question..."Is he going to beat you?" I answered probably not, and they replied "Well, don't worry about it then." Sure, they might not beat me, but there are other production shooters that they may beat, which would put them lower in the match standings. But to me, that isn't the point. If you are gonna shoot production, then follow the rules. What recourse does a shooter have if all the officials have turned a blind eye to it? I really, really hate when people say crap like that. It's almost worse than the "this is just a local match" cop out. It doesn't do anyone any favors. Not the competitor and certianly not the other shooters. Just confuses everyone when they incorrectly think it's legal and go to a big match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted February 6, 2012 Author Share Posted February 6, 2012 Grumpy, Speaking as a now retired LEO did you ever go up to the guy in question and inform him that he was technically in violation of the rules for shooting in production? I'll bet that: A. He had NO idea he was breaking any rules by shooting with his flashlight on. B. If you approached him about it he probably would have thanked you for informing him about the rules. My last couple years on we had switched from plain jane model 19s to the light rail model 17 Glocks and it was just a couple seconds work to remove the flashlight from the rail. IMHO The MD and RO's were wrong for not approaching these guys and informing them of the rules and I'll bet $ that the guys would like it if someone would talk to them about the rules and where they can get a copy of them etc... JK Actually, I have mentioned to at least one of the LEO'S, just in passing, and again the reply was, we (I) am just doing this for practice, which is quite clear, as they use cover, look from side to side before showing clear and holstering. Like I said, I have no problem with them practicing, but competing in production is just not the place they should be, in my opinion. I on the other hand, am not practicing per se at the match, and I wish to compete with others in my division on equal footing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flack jacket Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Good thread.... At our club, during sign up, we ask what kind of gear? Then we suggest a division for them based on the rules and give options. 1. Production 2. Open Minor. Runs smooth, and they make the choice. Which is usually not an issue especially if they are not YET USPSA members, then we hand them our card with website, USPSA Application and wish them a good time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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