IPSC Rules Committee Removed Virginia Count Scoring?

[Chris Keen]

I don't know how many members here visit the Global Village (besides Jim Norman!) but I just noticed today that the IPSC Rules Committee has released a new IPSC Rule Book effective Jan.1st, 2012 and among many other changes, they have completely killed Virginia Count, Fixed Time, and Standard Exercises. Any classifer that previously utilized such scoring (i.e. El Pres.) has since been removed from the IPSC website, and as such is no longer authorized.

Now, while I'm sure many folks here would prefer to never have to shoot Virginia Count stages again, I for one actually appreciated, if not enjoyed, the extra level of difficulty required to shoot those stages & classifiers. If nothing else it required a more deliberate mental attitude in regards to accuracy. And while this won't affect the vast majority of our American members, I know there are many of us here who DO actually shoot IPSC once in a while. I'm pretty sure we have many members who live near our Southern & Northern borders who cross over from time to time, to shoot IPSC matches.

Personally, I have only shot one IPSC Special Classifer match, as well as the inaugural U.S. IPSC Nationals held here in Ohio a few years ago. But that's not to say I wont ever shoot another .... I have often thought how fascinating it would be to travel to a foreign country, and participate in a match that I have never attended (and possibly never will again) for the shear thrill of doing something new and different, yet familiar and enjoyable at the same time.

I completely and totally DISAGREE with this action, almost as much as I disagreed with their decision to kill Modified Division, even though I was never much of a fan. Although on the flip side I see that they have instituted what they call a "Classic Division" (A.K.A. 1911 or Single-Stack) and after reading the division restrictions, it looks very much like what Gary Stevens started for us years ago, with a 3 year provisional status, and 8 rd. Major / 10 rd. Minor restrictions. So 3 Cheers to Gary for growing that division to an International Level.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Chris Keen

[waktasz]

Weird.

[Micah]

An interesting choice...reducing the challenge of potential stages is simply interesting. I am curious to know the backstory of this change...

[BritinUSA]

There was a long thread on GV about it a while back. I spoke out against the plan to remove Virginia Count as I think it adds an extra element to short courses.

They also added this below; I think that prior to this rule, only classifiers could have mandatory actions (I think)

• 1.1.5.2 Short Courses and Classifiers may include mandatory reloads and may dictate a shooting position,location and/or stance.
  
  
  
  

[Schutzenmeister]

Wasn't exactly done in secret. As Paul notes, it was listed as a proposed change for almost a year before it was voted upon. There was a lengthy and spirited rebuttal from several folks on the GV. However, in the end, they who drafted the rules managed to convince the combined Regional Directors at the last Generaly Assembly (during the World Shoot in Greece) to vote for getting rid of VC, FT, and Standards.

Maybe if more folks had spoken out against the change the vote might have gone a different direction.

[Chris Keen]

Sorry if I sounded like it was widely unknown ... I just had no idea. I haven't been on the GV in quite some time.

Maybe if more of us (Americans) participated on the GV it would have been made more visible to us, through discussions here on BE ......

Maybe if we weren't always censored, and made to feel unwelcome on the GV we would participate more ....

Maybe I just expect too much transparency in my life ........

[twodownzero]

Didn't notice, but I agree, that's very weird.

I hate Virginia Count but I wouldn't want to be without it, either.

[Saffer]

It isn't a big deal. Virginia count is usually for short courses anyway. Short courses are now defined as a CoF with 12 shots or less. However a short course can include mandatory reloads and can define shooting position, stance etc.

Take El Presidente as an example. It is dead in its old guise. But because it is a 12 shot course, it is a short course. So you offer the same CoF but you introduce a mandatory reload EVERY 6 shots.

If you want to shoot more than 12 shots, knock yourself out, but you will need to make an additional mandatory reload.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Saffer

[Skydiver]

It isn't a big deal. Virginia count is usually for short courses anyway. Short courses are now defined as a CoF with 12 shots or less. However a short course can include mandatory reloads and can define shooting position, stance etc.

Take El Presidente as an example. It is dead in its old guise. But because it is a 12 shot course, it is a short course. So you offer the same CoF but you introduce a mandatory reload EVERY 6 shots.

If you want to shoot more than 12 shots, knock yourself out, but you will need to make an additional mandatory reload.

But El Presidente won't be legal as a Short Course because it's more than 9 shots from a single view or location which is over the limit for 2012 IPSC rule 1.2.1.1.

[Chris Keen]

I believe the following would would supersede that .... but I'm not positive.

• 1.1.5.1 Level I and Level II matches are not required to comply strictly with the freestyle requirements or round count limitations (see Section 1.2).

[Skydiver]

I believe the following would would supersede that .... but I'm not positive.

• 1.1.5.1 Level I and Level II matches are not required to comply strictly with the freestyle requirements or round count limitations (see Section 1.2).

Nice! A 32 round short course!

I suspect that variance around the round count limit was to allow building a 40 round long course, but I would think that the 9 shots per view/location would still be in place.

[Saffer]

I interpret the round count flexibility on freestyle for level I and II matches, to be flexibility regarding the balance between short, medium and long courses(rule 1.2.1.4). Not actual round count. But I could be wrong.

As for El Presidente, lol, just when you think you understand the new rules, someone comes along and kicks you in the pills, reminding you of something you never considered. Good point on the 9 rounds from any one position rule.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Saffer

[Chris Keen]

Indeed it is. Sorry for any confusion .....

[as posted on the Global Village]

Hi Mark,

1. Virginia Count is dead, and Classifiers using VC will no longer be valid. If not already gone, they will be removed from the IPSC website.

2. Short Courses do have a limit, but it has been raised from 9 round to 12 rounds (see Rule 1.2.1.1), and Mandatory Reloads can indeed be included.

3. Rule 1.1.5.1 allows Level I and II matches to vary from the maximum round count limits.

Hope this answers your questions.

.

[Chris Keen]

Here's a quick rundown of the new changes for IPSC. >>> Linky to GV thread <<<

Please remember this is strictly IPSC rule changes ... Not USPSA!

Hi everyone. I have paraphrased what I consider the most significant rule changes to the shooter - not officials as all the rule changes are significant.

2.2.1.2 - you cannot take short cuts across fault lines that are meant to designate a passageway - 1 procedural per shot after shortcut.

2.2.7 a platform may be asked for if ports not at a reachable height for a competitor.

4.3.2.2 If using mini and full sized poppers the minis must be at least 2 meters rearward of the furtherest full sized ones.

8.1.3.1 when WSB requires placing firearm on a table it cannot be propped up by any external thing

8.5.1.1 though this has not changed, movement is defined a taking more a single step, not 2 steps as I often hear.

8.7.1 You cannot take sight pictures or dry fire prior to start signal - warning first time, then procedurals.

9.1.4.2 if you self stop during a COF because you think targets have not been patched - no reshoot - we have always enforced it but some shooters did not know about is so there is now a rule.

9.2 No more Virginia count

9.9 If the highest scoring area is visible on a target that is moving or obscured by moving barriers are not disappearing and incur penalties - read it as it says lot more.

10.2.8 If the COF stipulates strong of weak hand only you will get a penalty for scooping the gun with the other hand off the table at a table start

10.2.8.2 procedural for using ground, barricade or other prop to increase stability in weak / strong hand only COF

10.2.11 Procedurals for shooting over a barrier 1.8 meters high or greater - yep, it happens!

10.4.3 tightens up AD on load - no longer includes 'while preparing to'

Thats pretty much it though with all the gnashing of teeth on the GV over this you would think it had been totally rewritten

Happy NY and I hope you all .... [snip]

Vince, anything to add that I have missed?

__________________

Pete,

Nice summary of the most critical issues, but I'd expand and add the following:

9.1.4.2 if you hesitate or self stop during a COF because you think targets have not been patched - no reshoot - we have always enforced it but some shooters did not know about is so there is now a rule.

9.2 No more Virginia count Fixed Time or Standard Exercises

6.2.3 confirmation that a Gun-Check is a service to a competitor, not a definitive Get Out Of Jail Free card!

6.4.2.1 further clarification of Team eligibility.

8.6.2 a clear distinction between Assistance and Interference

9.7.8 hands-off signed score sheets, particularly those retained at stages

App A2 Super Seniors automatically transferred to Senior if insufficient SS registered

App C1 a significant change is that Calibration Ammo must achieve between 120-125 Power Factor. This replaces the previous +/- 5% of the 125PF floor, which meant that up to 131.25PF could be used.

[Saffer]

Yep, Chris, and guess who Mark is? But I think flexibility on round count limitations will be a combination of relaxing the balance recommendations, and allowing larger round counts.

As for the 9 round rule, would a mag change constitute a position change? I doubt it based on rule 8.5.1.2.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Saffer

[Chris Keen]

I wondered the same thing Mark.

In essence you are only taking 6 shots from one position ..... then performing a MANDATORY RELOAD, then taking another 6 shots from one position.

But I tend to agree with you that it's still not allowed.

[Skydiver]

Looking on the bright side, with the removal Virginia Count (in IPSC), I don't have to contend with entering extra shot and extra hit penalties anymore when entering scores. I'm quite sure that other other stats people are also happy with the removal of multiple strings allowed by Standard Exercises. No more over time penalties either with the removal of Fixed Time. Overall, it makes it much easier to develop and implement a hand held electronic scoring system that can run on a phone.

[wgnoyes]

Absolutely.... unbelievable!!!

I literally did not think they could sink any lower, but they found a way to do it. "Weird"? Atrocity and Travesty are words that come to my mind.

[Saffer]

I wondered the same thing Mark.

In essence you are only taking 6 shots from one position ..... then performing a MANDATORY RELOAD, then taking another 6 shots from one position.

But I tend to agree with you that it's still not allowed.

I took it up at GV; a standing reload is not deemed as a position change. So El Presidente is dead, except for Level I and II matches, where round count can be varied.

[Flexmoney]

Sorry if I sounded like it was widely unknown ... I just had no idea. I haven't been on the GV in quite some time.

We are looking at splitting out and giving the IPSC info it's own place here on BE's forum.

[West Texas Granny]

Crazy. Simply crazy.

[ChuckS]

Sorry if I sounded like it was widely unknown ... I just had no idea. I haven't been on the GV in quite some time.

We are looking at splitting out and giving the IPSC info it's own place here on BE's forum.

Will it be moderated with the same level of respect and fairness as the GV?

[Skydiver]

Assuming we skip the 9 shots per view/location issue for now. I've always understood El Presidente to have an implied "no stacking" rule because it was Virginia Count. If it is now Comstock scoring, a shooter would the be free to shoot the CoF as 4 shots into T1, 2 shots into T2, reload, 4 shots into T3 and 2 shots into T2. Or does the suspension of "freestyle" in Level I and Level II in IPSC also allow specifying target engagement order and number of shots per target?

If it is true that Level I and Level II don't have to follow strictly with the freestyle requirements, then a long course can be designed where the WSB states something like T1-4 must be engaged weak hand only from Area A, T5-8 must be engaged prone from Area B, T9-12 must be engage kneeling in Area C, and T13-16 must be engaged strong hand only in Area D. (As best as I can read the new IPSC rulebook, it doesn't have the USPSA restriction that only the last 6 shots of a medium or long course can be specified to be strong/weak hand only.)

Edited January 5, 2012 by Skydiver

[waktasz]

Absolutely.... unbelievable!!!

I literally did not think they could sink any lower, but they found a way to do it. "Weird"? Atrocity and Travesty are words that come to my mind.

I don't shoot IPSC and won't shoot IPSC ever so "weird" is as high as my Give a Crap-o-meter goes.

[Carlos]

Didn't notice, but I agree, that's very weird.

I hate Virginia Count but I wouldn't want to be without it, either.

Agreed. Without re-reading the GV debate, I imagine the proponents sought to make IPSC "more freestyle." I understand that sentiment & agree to a point.

However, I previously designed matches for indoor clubs. "Non-freesyle" features such as boxes, FT, VA count stages, etc. allowed a lot more variety within the very limited confines I was otherwise forced to work with. I think the sport is overall worse off without these long-standing rules on the books.

I confess though I REALLY hated FT stages.