considering upgrading from single stage

[motosapiens]

Keep the following in mind when reading:

1. i like things simple

2. i drink beer and sometimes watch tv while reloading

Last winter I started reloading with a simple lee breech-lock single-stage press (cheap kit from cabelas)figuring I'd use that until it paid for itself at least, and by then I'd have enough experience in knowledge to make a nice progressive setup (prob a 550) a good idea.

Well, here I am 8 months later, and I've loaded around 5000 rounds of 40 and around 2000 rounds of 9mm, so it's definitely paid for itself, but I'm still unsure what direction to go. Here's my current reloading practice:

1. decap, size and prime on the press in bulk, while drinking beer and watching football or hockey on tv. I sized and primes over 700 cases last night while watching the cowboys/giants game. I watch football one or two evenings a week anyway, so this seems like it is not costing me any time at all.

2. In lots of 50, I bell and charge. I just use the dipper that came with the days, since 4.1 of n320 seems to be a pretty good idpa/steel load for 40. (i used white clue to fill in my 2nd dipper so it throws 3.7-3.8gr of n320, and i use that one for 9mm).

3. Visual inspection of tray of 50 charged cases to verify powder looks about the same in all.

4. Seat bullet for entire tray of 50.

5. crimp lightly with Lee factory crimp die for entire tray of 50.

With the cases already sized and primed, it takes me 11-12 minutes per tray of 50 bullets to do the other steps, and that includes stopping for a sip of beer at the halfway mark of each tray and when I switch dies, so easily 200 rds/hr not counting the sizing/priming time. It has not been difficult at all for me to find the time to keep up with reloading. No kids, and wife is not cranky, so I can leave things set up upstairs, and just sit down and do 50-100 rounds before bed while I relax and think about shooting stuff.

Disadvantages: it's not very fast. I have to handle the primers by hand. I have to move each case in and out of the shell holder 4 times (even tho the first time is while watching football so it doesn't count).

Advantages: virtually no chance of a double charge or empty charge. I've only mangled 3 primers out of the whole 7000 rds, and it was immediately obvious so I just tossed those long before they ever got powder or a bullet. Minimal attention is required so I can daydream, think about shooting, scheme about new shooting or motorcycle stuff I need to buy, etc....

I'm sort of considering a 550b still, but I'm also considering just getting a lee classic turret with the pro-auto-disk. The turret will be cheaper (minor consideration, but still significant), is more idiot-proof than a progressive, and should speed things up by reducing the number of times I have to move casings in and out of the shell holder, and the pro-auto-disk will be save me the time of manually scooping powder.

Since I don't have any trouble loading 500-800 rds a month with the current setup, is it really worth it to spring for a good progressive? What I'm worried about is losing the ability to just cruise on auto-pilot while my mind wanders. Right now, I really only have to pay attention when I check the powder levels in each tray of 50 cases.

Thoughts? Anyone else loading 500-800 rds a month w/o a fancy progressive machine and enjoying it?

[Hi-Power Jack]

1. i like things simple

2. i drink beer and sometimes watch tv while reloading

8 months later, I've loaded around 5000 rounds of 40 and around 2000 rounds of 9mm ).

With the cases sized and primed, it takes me 11-12 minutes per tray of 50 bullets to do the other steps, and when I switch dies, so easily 200 rds/hr not counting the sizing/priming time. It has not been difficult for me to keep up with reloading.

Disadvantages: it's not very fast.

Advantages: no chance of a double or empty charge. I've only mangled 3 primers out of the whole 7000 rds, Minimal attention is required so I can daydream, think about shooting, scheme about new shooting or motorcycle stuff I need to buy, etc....

Since I don't have any trouble loading 500-800 rds a month with the current setup, is it really worth it to spring for a good progressive? Thoughts? Anyone else loading 500-800 rds a month w/o a fancy progressive machine and enjoying it?

Moto, sounds like you have a nice routine that you enjoy and don't see

any disadvantage to -- sounds great.

Why mess with success.

If you do switch, I'd go to a Square Deal - it costs $360 - and will do

everything you want.

But, not much advantage to you = except you could load 800 rounds in

3 -4 hours. No other advantage. And that doesn't sound too important

to you.

So, I'd keep doing what you're doing.

In the future, if you need to load more rounds/month, or your reloading

time becomes more valuable to you, step up to a Square Deal.

Good luck,

Jack

[latech15]

You could keep doing what you are doing, loading in cruise control while drinking beer and watching football OR you could get a 550 and load all that ammo in one night and really be on cruise control. SLEEPING while drinking beer and watching football.

Just thinking about loading pistol rounds the way you described makes me cringe. I have a single stage, a 550, and a 1050. The single stage only gets used for long range rifle rounds.

[EEH]

you ask for thoughts,,I can't load and watch TV.and drink beer,unless I do it on different days,,to easy to make bad mistakes !!!

as for the machine go get your self a dillon 550,you can always sell it later,good luck,,

[motosapiens]

you ask for thoughts,,I can't load and watch TV.and drink beer,unless I do it on different days,,to easy to make bad mistakes !!!

easy to make bad mistakes with a progressive system, anyway. in my experience it's pretty hard to make bad mistakes on a single stage. Mind you I'm not talking about pounding a 12-pack or anything, but I'm not sure I'd be comfortable having any beer, or watching any tv while loading with a progressive machine. That means that time is actually taken away from other activities, whereas most of my single-stage reloading time is in conjunction with other activities that I'd be doing anyway.

Of course it still might be worth it. If I could load 400 rds/hr, that would be an extra 2 hrs a month I could spend folding laundry (another activity I save for tv time).

You make a good point tho that if it turned out the progressive wasn't working for me, I could sell it without much hassle or loss.

One of the things I'm struggling with is whether it will be easier to find one evening a month to devote full attention to reloading for a couple hours, or easier to find 20-30 minutes at a time 4-6 times during the month, and pop out 100 rounds while I'm waiting for the missus to dry her hair and get dressed.

Edited December 13, 2011 by motosapiens

[Scoobb]

I think the dillon 550b would be perfect for you, seems like a better upgrade than the turret. Yes the turret will save you from placing brass 4 times in the shellholder, but with the 550 you can go on cruise mode and just keep adding a piece of brass and a bullet every time. Also anytime you want to take a drink, watch tv, go to the bathroom just stop with the handle down and that should keep you from loosing where you're at. I am actually in the same situation as you, I still haven't made up my mind for my next press. I'm kind of leaning towards a hornady lnl. I started reloading a long time ago, mostly for rifle and now I need to crank out more per hour myself.

[PKT1106]

Sounds like a solid 550/650 case to me. I started with the Lee kit as well, but when I moved into USPSA and rifle matches, I needed to produce more and have hands that hurt less. I still use my Lee for precision rounds on the rifles, but anything bulk (.223 and pistol) gets the 550. If you think you're going to have a consistent output for a few years, get the 550, if you think you'll end up shooting more, get the 650.

[motosapiens]

In hopes of making a data-driven decision (at some point, lol), I figured I'd gather some actual data, and before doing so I went and splurged on a pro-auto-disk powder measure, since the whole scooping thing, while simple, is the most annoying part of my reloading process.

Decap-size-prime: 7 minutes for 50 (a little slower than I thought. good thing I do this while watching football)

bell-charge: 4 minutes for 50 (3-4 mins faster with the pro-auto-disk mounted on the powder-through-expander-die)

seat-bullet: 6 minutes for 50 (often faster with 40, but the 9mm are a little more finicky about lining up for me, or i'm not belling enough)

crimp: 2 minutes for 50

So if you count the first step, it's about 150 rounds/hour, and 1/3 of that time is while watching football. Now I have to do some research and figure out how fast a progressive system really is, including all the ancillary steps (and the fixing of mistakes).

[LPatterson]

I'll add my thoughts to those above, DO NOT DO NOT even consider loading on a progressive press if you DO NOT plan to concentrate on it 100%. Personally I can't even chew gum and reload at the same time. After having a gun disassemble a magazine and a few other pieces, I think I can say that I know what I am talking about. A Dillon would be my first choice with a RCBS my second, I have no third. I heard this line somewhere "every man should know his limitations".

[biggdawg]

well on my hornady lnl i can load 400 an hour at a very leisurely pace.

[motosapiens]

well on my hornady lnl i can load 400 an hour at a very leisurely pace.

that's alot. I have some questions if you don't mind?

Are you doing all the operations on the press(including priming)?

do you leave it set up?

how long does it take you to switch calibers?

How often do you use it?

Do you sometimes mangle primers? or do you have to be picky about what brass you use? I ask because in priming on the press (on the downstroke of the singlestage), I sometimes can feel something going wrong, so i jiggle the shell in the holder a little, and don't force too much, and sometimes just give up and throw that piece of brass out. I'm not sure how that would work out with several concurrent operations going on with that lever pull.

Also, on something like a 550 since it doesn't auto-index, can I just run it like a turret press if I feel like doing things more slowly while watching tv? And then run it like a progressive when I'm in more of a hurry and can dedicate full attention to it?

DO NOT DO NOT even consider loading on a progressive press if you DO NOT plan to concentrate on it 100%.

No worries there. I agree with that thinking 100%. Too much to go really wrong if you screw up on a progressive.

Edited December 14, 2011 by motosapiens

[98sr20ve]

I would concur. DO NOT GET A PROGRESSIVE and drink beer and watch TV while loading.

But, any progressive will load 400 rds a hour easily.

A Lee Classic Turret is fairly foolproof. It only does 1 step at a time but autoindexs for you so it's easier and faster. About 150 to 200+ rds a hour. You do nothing but insert a case and pull the handle and place a bullet. Pretty simple.

I cringe when anyone says they don't pay close attention while reloading. SS are easy enough to make a double charge on. Just as easy as a Progressive in my opinion.

I would get a autoindexing press. Lee Classic Turret, SDB, 650. I had a horrible experience with a LnL so I can't really recommend it to anyone.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Moto, with a Square Deal ($365), you do

everything in one sitting - I can only

load 250 - 300 rounds/hour, but everyone

else swears they can load much more than

that:(

I leave it all set up, with cases left

in the press wherever I leave off - just

throw in another case, crank the handle,

and another round pops out.

There are some cartridge headstamps that

are tough to set a primer - lots of info

here on this forum about that = I throw

them away as I reload.

It is faster to use a Square Deal, but

sounds like you have the time and the

whole procedure set up that you enjoy -

no real reason to rush into it.

Watch the ads here, keep an eye out for

a Square Deal - when you find one, go

for it (quickly, before it is taken up).

Good luck,

Jack

[motosapiens]

I cringe when anyone says they don't pay close attention while reloading. SS are easy enough to make a double charge on. Just as easy as a Progressive in my opinion.

I do not concur, at least not with my procedure. Between the charge/expand stage and the bullet-seat stage, i make a visual inspection of the tray of 50 cases to verify the powder is at a similar level. A double charge would overflow the case and be extremely obvious. This inspection only takes a few seconds. The rest of the time you can go back to not paying attention. (although I do still measure the OAL from time to time, and actually weigh the powder charge from time to time).

The one issue I have had is that one time i found myself taking uncharged/unexpanded cases from the wrong pile, so I had seated a few bullets w/o powder. I was able to find them easily enough and now i move the tray of uncharged/unexpanded cases down to the floor when i switch dies, so there is ONLY the tray of 50 charged cases on the table. That has prevented a repeat.

BTW, thanks to all for the thoughtful advice. I think I need to hook up with someone local that loads on a 550 or 650 and observe one in action. That would probably clear up alot of my questions.

Edited December 14, 2011 by motosapiens

[98sr20ve]

I do not concur, at least not with my procedure. Between the charge/expand stage and the bullet-seat stage, i make a visual inspection of the tray of 50 cases to verify the powder is at a similar level. A double charge would overflow the case and be extremely obvious. This inspection only takes a few seconds. The rest of the time you can go back to not paying attention. (although I do still measure the OAL from time to time, and actually weigh the powder charge from time to time).

The one issue I have had is that one time i found myself taking uncharged/unexpanded cases from the wrong pile, so I had seated a few bullets w/o powder. I was able to find them easily enough and now i move the tray of uncharged/unexpanded cases down to the floor when i switch dies, so there is ONLY the tray of 50 charged cases on the table. That has prevented a repeat.

BTW, thanks to all for the thoughtful advice. I think I need to hook up with someone local that loads on a 550 or 650 and observe one in action. That would probably clear up alot of my questions.

With a progressive you can't choose when your going to be vigilant (like you say you do when look at a tray before seating a bullet). Your always seating a bullet. You always have to be vigilant.

[motosapiens]

With a progressive you can't choose when your going to be vigilant (like you say you do when look at a tray before seating a bullet). Your always seating a bullet. You always have to be vigilant.

Point taken. I concur, and that's one of the reasons i'm trying to think carefully and consider everything before i make the jump to a faster setup.

[mizer67]

I used to use a single stage press to load 3-400 handgun rounds a week. That got hard to keep up with as I shot more often, and life got busier.

While you can't multi-task while using a progressive, I now can load 100 rounds in ~8.5 minutes on a case fed XL650 or ~15-18 minutes per 100 on a Hornady LNL AP, dumping powder, picking primers, verifying charge weight, etc.

If you can't be vigilant for 8 minutes at a time, don't buy the progressive. If you leave it set up, it's so easy to bang out 1-200 rounds a night that I would never go back to a SS press, even if my shooting volume dropped significantly, for handgun rounds. It'd feel like cutting grass with a scissors.

[98sr20ve]

I have owned 2 qty, Lee Classic turrets, a 550 (with and with out a casefeeder), a LnL and a 650 with casefeeder.

I could load 100 rds in 10 mins on a 550 easily. 8 mins going faster but still checking every case for powder. 550 takes some skill to go that fast. That is with out a casefeeder.

I can easily load 100 rds in under 6 mins with a 650. More like 5 mins. It's stupid easy really.

I wish I bought the 650 4 years ago.

Edited December 14, 2011 by 98sr20ve

[biggdawg]

well on my hornady lnl i can load 400 an hour at a very leisurely pace.

that's alot. I have some questions if you don't mind?

Are you doing all the operations on the press(including priming)?

do you leave it set up?

how long does it take you to switch calibers?

How often do you use it?

Do you sometimes mangle primers? or do you have to be picky about what brass you use? I ask because in priming on the press (on the downstroke of the singlestage), I sometimes can feel something going wrong, so i jiggle the shell in the holder a little, and don't force too much, and sometimes just give up and throw that piece of brass out. I'm not sure how that would work out with several concurrent operations going on with that lever pull.

Also, on something like a 550 since it doesn't auto-index, can I just run it like a turret press if I feel like doing things more slowly while watching tv? And then run it like a progressive when I'm in more of a hurry and can dedicate full attention to it?

DO NOT DO NOT even consider loading on a progressive press if you DO NOT plan to concentrate on it 100%.

No worries there. I agree with that thinking 100%. Too much to go really wrong if you screw up on a progressive.

yes i do all operations on press when loading pistol ammo.

yes i leave it set up at times. the nice think about the lnl is the quick change bushings. once you have your dies set and locked a quarter

turn and they come out and you can switch to another caliber in a couple of minutes if not changing the primer system from large to small or

visa versa. that takes about 3-4 minutes to switch.

I use my press weekly and i also have a case feeder that is the biggest thing that increases speed. i also use mine like a turret press at

times when i am doing load development. i may make a video sometime

and no i don't do alcohol when loading the 2 just don't mix for me.

[WyrTwister]

Keep the following in mind when reading:

1. i like things simple

2. i drink beer and sometimes watch tv while reloading

Last winter I started reloading with a simple lee breech-lock single-stage press (cheap kit from cabelas)figuring I'd use that until it paid for itself at least, and by then I'd have enough experience in knowledge to make a nice progressive setup (prob a 550) a good idea.

Well, here I am 8 months later, and I've loaded around 5000 rounds of 40 and around 2000 rounds of 9mm, so it's definitely paid for itself, but I'm still unsure what direction to go. Here's my current reloading practice:

1. decap, size and prime on the press in bulk, while drinking beer and watching football or hockey on tv. I sized and primes over 700 cases last night while watching the cowboys/giants game. I watch football one or two evenings a week anyway, so this seems like it is not costing me any time at all.

2. In lots of 50, I bell and charge. I just use the dipper that came with the days, since 4.1 of n320 seems to be a pretty good idpa/steel load for 40. (i used white clue to fill in my 2nd dipper so it throws 3.7-3.8gr of n320, and i use that one for 9mm).

3. Visual inspection of tray of 50 charged cases to verify powder looks about the same in all.

4. Seat bullet for entire tray of 50.

5. crimp lightly with Lee factory crimp die for entire tray of 50.

With the cases already sized and primed, it takes me 11-12 minutes per tray of 50 bullets to do the other steps, and that includes stopping for a sip of beer at the halfway mark of each tray and when I switch dies, so easily 200 rds/hr not counting the sizing/priming time. It has not been difficult at all for me to find the time to keep up with reloading. No kids, and wife is not cranky, so I can leave things set up upstairs, and just sit down and do 50-100 rounds before bed while I relax and think about shooting stuff.

Disadvantages: it's not very fast. I have to handle the primers by hand. I have to move each case in and out of the shell holder 4 times (even tho the first time is while watching football so it doesn't count).

Advantages: virtually no chance of a double charge or empty charge. I've only mangled 3 primers out of the whole 7000 rds, and it was immediately obvious so I just tossed those long before they ever got powder or a bullet. Minimal attention is required so I can daydream, think about shooting, scheme about new shooting or motorcycle stuff I need to buy, etc....

I'm sort of considering a 550b still, but I'm also considering just getting a lee classic turret with the pro-auto-disk. The turret will be cheaper (minor consideration, but still significant), is more idiot-proof than a progressive, and should speed things up by reducing the number of times I have to move casings in and out of the shell holder, and the pro-auto-disk will be save me the time of manually scooping powder.

Since I don't have any trouble loading 500-800 rds a month with the current setup, is it really worth it to spring for a good progressive? What I'm worried about is losing the ability to just cruise on auto-pilot while my mind wanders. Right now, I really only have to pay attention when I check the powder levels in each tray of 50 cases.

Thoughts? Anyone else loading 500-800 rds a month w/o a fancy progressive machine and enjoying it?

The Lee cast iron turret press is a great press , add the primer system & the Lee disk powder measure and it is even better . It is just about the best value going .

The LoadMaster is a good press ( after you have learned the basics on a single stage or turret press ) . IF you have the time , patience and a little mechanical aptitude to learn the press .

Mine is running fine now , but I had some bumps in the road at first . Also , Lee has improved the priming system .

God bless

Wyr

[Sc0]

Dillon 650 is great and the same for the BL550 even though I haven't cranked any rounds out of it yet.

With a progressive press a distraction is not tolerable and can result in a missed primer or a double charge. A Double charge is harder to do on the 650 but a missed primer can be done rather easily. The BL550 is a base model of the RL550 and can be upgraded later or used as is, no auto-primer feed and no powder measure setup. I think I spent an hour reconfiguring my XL650 from .308 to .357Mag including die and powder measure adjusting and took maybe 10 minutes from the first pull to load 100rds. (not using a powder cop or lockout die so visually checked the cases for powder)