Recognized categories for USPSA matches

[Skydiver]

[breaking off from the division modification thread.]

Should all categories be be equally recognized and promoted?

[Flex$ ... edit to add...]

Categories are:

6.3.1 USPSA matches may include different Categories within each Division

to recognize different groups of competitors. A competitor may declare

multiple Categories for a match or tournament.

• Lady
• Junior
• Senior
• Super Senior
• Military
• Law

Edited December 9, 2011 by Flexmoney

[JFlowers]

All Divisions should be. However, so divisions are just sexier or more easily sold than other. However, I like that USPSA has been willing to recognize "specialized" matches. Glock Only, Revolver Only, etc.

[centermass]

Equal, but SEPARATE...

If Women, Junior, Snr, SuperSnr, LE, military want to be recognized as such, then they shall NOT be scored within the "main" match placement.

Edited December 9, 2011 by centermass

[West Texas Granny]

Let's be honest here. The anti-gun forces will always be an obstacle to our sport and our ownership of weapons. They are not going to go give up. If you really wish to prevail (maintain the status quo ) then my gender needs to be promoted. It's hard to put the sport and ownership of weapons down when the " soccer mom " is a conceal carry license holder or a competitive shooter. We need to make competitive shooting a " family sport ". An activity that the entire family can enjoy together. Market it. A prime reason to add a 22 rimfire pistol division.

[Chuck Anderson]

Let's be honest here. The anti-gun forces will always be an obstacle to our sport and our ownership of weapons. They are not going to go give up. If you really wish to prevail (maintain the status quo ) then my gender needs to be promoted. It's hard to put the sport and ownership of weapons down when the " soccer mom " is a conceal carry license holder or a competitive shooter. We need to make competitive shooting a " family sport ". An activity that the entire family can enjoy together. Market it. A prime reason to add a 22 rimfire pistol division.

We have .22 in Steel Challenge. It's a terrific sport that whole families can participate in. What is it you want? You spend a lot of time complaining about what USPSA is. How can we fix it to suit you. And I say that only partly smart ass. USPSA is never going to be everything to everyone, but if you've got a valid idea, let's hear it? I know you haven't been involved with USPSA very long. Some ideas have been tried and failed, or based on experience we know just won't work. Or they go against the fundamental principles the organiazation was founded on. If you've got something though, let's hear it. A .22 Division in a normal USPSA match will not work, both because it is completely against what USPSA was founded upon, but also making stages work for Major and minor PF is difficult enough. Trying to add in .22 guns will dilute the stage designers ability to put stages together that would only work for guns with a certain PF.

[LPatterson]

Equal, but SEPARATE...

If Women, Junior, Snr, SuperSnr, LE, military want to be recognized as such, then they shall NOT be scored within the "main" match placement.

Why is it that these categories should NOT be scored within the main match placement? I regularly get beat by a female Production shooter in her division and in the unofficial combined where she whoops up on a bunch of men. Hopefully you are not worried who you are getting beat by. Think of it like golf, do the very best that you can do. So you get beat by Lisa or Kay or Athena hopefully you are not asking for them to be put on a different score sheet.

[The Antichrome]

I think they should add a category: Uncategorized.

'Cuz I dont fit into any of those categories (they dont have a category for guys who work at the mall) But I want another shot at a trophy.

Which brings me to my point. If you're in the main draw you pay one entry fee and have basically 1 shot at a trophy/plaque/prize. But if you fit into a recognized category (or 2) then you have more shots at an award...but you still only pay one entry fee. Maybe there should be a category fee...Get my point?

[LPatterson]

I think they should add a category: Uncategorized.

'Cuz I dont fit into any of those categories (they dont have a category for guys who work at the mall) But I want another shot at a trophy.

Which brings me to my point. If you're in the main draw you pay one entry fee and have basically 1 shot at a trophy/plaque/prize. But if you fit into a recognized category (or 2) then you have more shots at an award...but you still only pay one entry fee. Maybe there should be a category fee...Get my point?

If you win High gun you also can't claim high GM. As a near blind super senior I am probably not going to win high C and/or high super senior in the same match depending on the MD. But if I did would you be upset? Prize tables are usually by order of finish within a Division.

[Nik Habicht]

I think they should add a category: Uncategorized.

'Cuz I dont fit into any of those categories (they dont have a category for guys who work at the mall) But I want another shot at a trophy.

Which brings me to my point. If you're in the main draw you pay one entry fee and have basically 1 shot at a trophy/plaque/prize. But if you fit into a recognized category (or 2) then you have more shots at an award...but you still only pay one entry fee. Maybe there should be a category fee...Get my point?

That's one of the reasons smart matches stipulate that you can only win one, and that it will be the highest award you could win.....

The lower award goes to the next person in line in that category or class....

[Sarge]

I personally don't get the military and to a lesser extent the LE categories. I know some cops are going to shoot but I rarely see an active duty military shooter. Actually I don't think I ever have. What was the reasoning behind these two Categories being formed? Other than saying it is a way to recognize their sacrifice,etc. Is it just so they can shoot with a military rig? I'm not bashing, especially military. But I just don't see the need in USPSA. If you want to recognize military let them shoot at a discount.

[gamingoddess]

Actually, there are many USPSA shooters who are in active duty from all branches (USAMU shooters are an example). Do they use military rigs to participate? 99.99% I say don't (I sure as hell didn't). The remaining .01%, never seen them.

[remoandiris]

What was the reasoning behind these two Categories being formed?

Likely a way/incentive to get the 2 groups into shooting. You'd think they'd want to become more proficient in shooting...especially LE. Despite the 2 wars we are currently fighting, the vast majority of military touch a firearm only once every year or three (depending on their military branch) to re-qualify.

[Chuck Anderson]

I personally don't get the military and to a lesser extent the LE categories. I know some cops are going to shoot but I rarely see an active duty military shooter. Actually I don't think I ever have. What was the reasoning behind these two Categories being formed? Other than saying it is a way to recognize their sacrifice,etc. Is it just so they can shoot with a military rig? I'm not bashing, especially military. But I just don't see the need in USPSA. If you want to recognize military let them shoot at a discount.

You've never seen active duty Military shoot? What about the AMU? See them shoot all the time.

That said Ive always got a laugh out of the LE and militray categories. The other 4 have to do with competitive disadvantages. Smaller size, age something that makes it more difficult to compete for the top spot. What is LEs disadvantage, they're too full of donuts?

[Sarge]

I personally don't get the military and to a lesser extent the LE categories. I know some cops are going to shoot but I rarely see an active duty military shooter. Actually I don't think I ever have. What was the reasoning behind these two Categories being formed? Other than saying it is a way to recognize their sacrifice,etc. Is it just so they can shoot with a military rig? I'm not bashing, especially military. But I just don't see the need in USPSA. If you want to recognize military let them shoot at a discount.

You've never seen active duty Military shoot? What about the AMU?

Well, there is that. BUT the AMU doesn't need to shoot under the military category. They are for the most part good enough to hold there own in any category at any level.

[LPatterson]

I personally don't get the military and to a lesser extent the LE categories. I know some cops are going to shoot but I rarely see an active duty military shooter. Actually I don't think I ever have. What was the reasoning behind these two Categories being formed? Other than saying it is a way to recognize their sacrifice,etc. Is it just so they can shoot with a military rig? I'm not bashing, especially military. But I just don't see the need in USPSA. If you want to recognize military let them shoot at a discount.

You've never seen active duty Military shoot? What about the AMU?

Well, there is that. BUT the AMU doesn't need to shoot under the military category. They are for the most part good enough to hold there own in any category at any level.

Can't let them shoot at a discount as that would bring out the cry babies. I heard it from people that didn't get a slot to the Nationals and had to pay a higher entry fee. I shoot GSSF in Guardian(LE) because it includes retired Military. Why should it matter that the AMU is in the military category (they are active duty) just because they are good. Afterall they wouldn't be in the AMU if they shot as badly as we do. You weren't in the AMU were you? Maybe the Border Patrol team shouldn't be considered police either. Those team might not be there if there was some form of recognition.

[Nik Habicht]

I personally don't get the military and to a lesser extent the LE categories. I know some cops are going to shoot but I rarely see an active duty military shooter. Actually I don't think I ever have. What was the reasoning behind these two Categories being formed? Other than saying it is a way to recognize their sacrifice,etc. Is it just so they can shoot with a military rig? I'm not bashing, especially military. But I just don't see the need in USPSA. If you want to recognize military let them shoot at a discount.

You've never seen active duty Military shoot? What about the AMU? See them shoot all the time.

That said Ive always got a laugh out of the LE and militray categories. The other 4 have to do with competitive disadvantages. Smaller size, age something that makes it more difficult to compete for the top spot. What is LEs disadvantage, they're too full of donuts?

I guess I've always spun it differently -- thinking that categories = groups of folks we should be trying to recruit into the sport......

Of course now that practically half the competitors fit into senior or SS, maybe that's not really true.....

[MarkCO]

Should all categories be be equally recognized and promoted?

It appears that the main disagreements revolve around the definition of the two words "recognized" and "promoted".

Recognized, to me, means nothing more than a certificate for the top in each category so long as the minimum number of shooters are competing in said category.

If "promoted" means added incentive for persons in those categories to compete, then we hit the stumbling block. If we are talking about new shooters (the most used reason for such promotion) in the special categories, then this type of "promotion" at major events will garner little benefit. At the local level, then there likely is some benefit. Our club has put our money where our mouth is and we charge only enough to cover section and national fees to the "categories" to compete in Steel Challenge.

If we will focus on one special category, Lady, my opinion is that Julie G has done more to bring women into the sport than the grand total sum of any category recognition and promotion endeaveors by any shooting organization. Julie G (yes there are others too) writes, blogs, is in print, video, etc. She is a great representative of the sport and the shooting lifestyle in general. Who Julie "is" is what matters to most of the women who are getting into shooting that I have personally spoken with. There are many other women who compete, some are recognized by these new ladies, but are not seen by them as any enticement to get into shooting. In that vein, Julie is fairly unique. The category of "Lady" is also unique.

When we look at the other categories, 2 have to do with occupation and 3 with age. These all are subject to change whereas if you are born a female, you (hopefully) will always be so. I have had several LE/Mil NOT want to be recognized in the special category. Therefore, there could be made a rational argument for treating ladies different from the other categories.

Last current thought (donning nomex)..."We" give a lot of lip service to wanting women and juniors in USPSA, however, the "environment" on the range is often "hostile" to ladies and juniors. There are a few threads here on Enos that address this "environment". It appears that most will (or have) refuse to change and create a true "family friendly" atmosphere that is more inviting to women and juniors. The benefits of "promotion" of juniors and ladies are often undercut by this "environment".

Edited December 10, 2011 by MarkCO

[old506]

I have kicked around the idea of a Jack/Jill type side match (more of a side scoring system). I don't know how it would work, maybe under a handicap system? The match could be shot for both the individual category and then the same scores combine and applied to the Jack/Jill category?

We have quite a few husband/wife combinations at our local matches.

It may be the easiest way to try to "double" participation?

Let's be honest here. The anti-gun forces will always be an obstacle to our sport and our ownership of weapons. They are not going to go give up. If you really wish to prevail (maintain the status quo ) then my gender needs to be promoted. It's hard to put the sport and ownership of weapons down when the " soccer mom " is a conceal carry license holder or a competitive shooter. We need to make competitive shooting a " family sport ". An activity that the entire family can enjoy together. Market it. A prime reason to add a 22 rimfire pistol division.

We have .22 in Steel Challenge. It's a terrific sport that whole families can participate in. What is it you want? You spend a lot of time complaining about what USPSA is. How can we fix it to suit you. And I say that only partly smart ass. USPSA is never going to be everything to everyone, but if you've got a valid idea, let's hear it? I know you haven't been involved with USPSA very long. Some ideas have been tried and failed, or based on experience we know just won't work. Or they go against the fundamental principles the organiazation was founded on. If you've got something though, let's hear it. A .22 Division in a normal USPSA match will not work, both because it is completely against what USPSA was founded upon, but also making stages work for Major and minor PF is difficult enough. Trying to add in .22 guns will dilute the stage designers ability to put stages together that would only work for guns with a certain PF.

[Shawn Knight]

There are never enough Military shooters for me to bother anymore. Most of the match forms I fill out nowadays don't even have military on the form anymore.

[Jim Norman]

It is interesting. We recognize Lady and Age, Jr. Senior, S. Senior. We don't award on category, they are just listed in the results. I have just re-written our online Registration form to facilitate the new import feature on EzWin and that requires LEO and Mil so I added them. It will take time to see how many people take advantage of the categories. I don't have a problem with categories especially now that I don't have to click extra boxes.

[Reshoot]

[breaking off from the division modification thread.]

Should all categories be be equally recognized and promoted?

[Flex$ ... edit to add...]

Categories are:

6.3.1 USPSA matches may include different Categories within each Division

to recognize different groups of competitors. A competitor may declare

multiple Categories for a match or tournament.

• Lady
• Junior
• Senior
• Super Senior
• Military
• Law

I would say yes. Let match results show ladies against ladies, juniors against juniors, seniors against seniors and so on. But then, to be perfectly honest, I probably take this position because I am a senior.

[ziebart]

I think we should have lady, junior, and the senior categories. Even if there are not enough people in them for awards there is still a personal pride issue. I only shoot local matches, and there are no physical awards but seeing your standings is important. And when I see a super senior beat me I know I still have a long way to go in this game. To me its similar to classes as classifiers seem to be mostly stand and shoot so any mobility issues can be masked. I know when I'm 60 and my knees are blown out it will be nice to see how I stand compared to my peers.

As active duty AF I don't really see the need for a military category. Yes we allow them to use duty gear, but why? It has been said over and over that this is a game/sport. If that is the case then we don't need to make special rules to accommodate "tactical training". Yes many in the mil could use additional firearms training, but I think there is better ways. Probably half the people in my section own firearms, yet none own a M9 or 92FS and even fewer shoot the guns they own on a regular basis. If your not training with the same gun then using a different holster is not that big of a deal.

[West Texas Granny]

[breaking off from the division modification thread.]

Should all categories be be equally recognized and promoted?

[Flex$ ... edit to add...]

Categories are:

6.3.1 USPSA matches may include different Categories within each Division

to recognize different groups of competitors. A competitor may declare

multiple Categories for a match or tournament.

• Lady
• Junior
• Senior
• Super Senior
• Military
• Law

How about:

Sponsored shooters

• Lady
• Junior
• Senior
• Super Senior
• Military
• Law

Non sponsored shooters

• Lady
• Junior
• Senior
• Super Senior
• Military
• Law

[yoshidaex]

How do you determine who's sponsored and who's not?

[West Texas Granny]

How do you determine who's sponsored and who's not?

You're joking right?

If you receive money for your participation, your expenses and fees are paid by someone other than yourself, you wear logos of companies or act as representatives of a sponsor by using their products in return for compensation or other considerations, a member of a company shooting team and on and on.

Edited January 28, 2012 by West Texas Granny